Barrel Trends

[williada]

Rod, I think a lot of guys can't afford to use multiple barrels and hope to get several seasons out of a barrel. I don't think you got lucky mate, because fresh 5 groove canted lands shoot beautifully. Problem is many don't know how to clean them to get the most out of them and were blaming soft steel. Currently running with Bartlein myself in FO and prepared to shell the dollars to get what I want, but also had one given to me like all barrels manufacturers have had, that was not up to scratch. I have not tried the Krieger 5 groove canted lands although traditional barrels in 30 cal by Krieger have been the backbone of my gear over the years. The only luck in this game is the luck of the draw. Otherwise you make your own luck. So I guess Rod, you have been pretty lucky. Would you say traditional configuration is not as good Rod?

[RDavies]

Would you say traditional configuration is not as good Rod?

Since I have pretty much only used 5R groove Bartleins for the last half dozen years, I really cant tell whether other groove configurations are better or worse. I do know a few top F Open shooters who swear by the regular 4 groove Barts, but I havent tried them to find out if they are better or not. I have 4x 5R groove Barts coming but if they didnt have that configuration in stock, wouldnt think twice about going for a straight 4 groove.

I do know that most of my 5R barrels have been able to shoot for up to 100 shots without cleaning, while I think other configurations MIGHT need cleaning more regularly, but then as I mentioned before I did have one barrel which did coper foul but this was being pushed pretty hard in a SAUM. I do suspect that the 5R barrels might allow slightly higher velocities for the same pressure going by comparing my loads with other shooters.

Yes I have heard of people damaging canted land barrelswhen cleaning and I think this is a valid point, so I take extra care when cleaning and mark my rods with paint or masking tape so I can see them spinning. I also use rods with very slippery bearings and if need be with give the rod a little twisting help to follow the rifling. But then I use a lot less rod strokes than most shooters, so I can take a bit more effort.

[bruce moulds]

truth be known,
there could well be as much difference in accuracy, fouling, etc within a barrel brand and type of rifling, than betwwen them.
more important is the quality of manufacture and finish, and how said barrel is fitted, run in, and fed.
also the condition of how the reamer leaves the throat/leade can have a huge effect on fouling potential.
in the end you have to work with what you have unless it is a hopeless case and make the most of it.
in my lifetime the standards of barrels has improved immensely, giving more opportunity of getting a better lottery ticket.
bruce.

[pjifl]

I also have observed the quality of barrels have improved significantly. in every way.

It must be 30 years ago that I set up a device to measure the straightness of a barrel bore. I had maybe 10 discarded 308 TR barrels which had been replaced. Many of them came with a history of each barrel's performance so I wondered how bore straightness would correlate with performance.

The worst had the bore wandering about 1/2 mm off centreline. It was by no means the worst shooing barrel and had done some fine shooting for the standard of the time. The max deviation occurred well back from the muzzle which probably saved it.

It would be interesting to repeat this on more recent barrels but it is a major undertaking.

Peter Smith.

[bruce moulds]

pete,
that is probably better than one with a kink in it where they "straightened" it, as was done in the day.
bruce.

[superx10]

I just dug this old post up that explains well the extra care that needs to be given to cantered rifling, for me at the moment I am using Brux barrels with square rifling.




Re: Borescope evidence of the death of a very good barrel
#86 Postby ecomeat » Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:59 am



A shooter sent me a PM that i just answered, asking that given my experience with " this" barrel that the thread was about, would i still recommend Bartlein.
My answer is copied here because i think its relevant. The guy doing the cleaning is the only one responsible for what get shoved down any barrel, and for the entire cleaning process. Bartlein make superbly accurate barrels, but any fool can wreck one if they try had enough. I managed to do it. Thankfully some great work by Peter Smith and David McNamara laid the whole story out for the world to benefit from. Frank at Bartlein and Craig at 7mm have got a rock solid friendship and professional relationship, and a constant supply of Bartlein barrels into Australia is the end result.


Yes mate, i absolutely recommend them and dont use anything else.
Nor do i ever recommend anything else. They are the ultimate professionals at Bartlein with both knowledge and technical skills, and will make basically anything if you are prepared to wait. Any twist, gain twists, different bore diametrs etc etc are all possible.

What happened with mine was no fault whatsoever of Bartleins. It was 100% my doing. Using a paste on a wire brush with a non turning rod on a barrel with canted lands was all my own mistake/choice so no way do i attribute any of that to Bartlein.
I simply tell anyone who i talk to that they have to remember that canted lands absolutely do make it easier for a jag or brush to "skip" down he bore instead of turning with the twist rate of the lands, and therefore it is really, really important that they only use well maintained high quality rods and that they always ensure that their rod is turning.
With that barrel that i killed, i didnt know, and i didnt look. At the end of the day, Frank Green replaced my barrel very promptly, and it all led to Bartlein now having a significant presence in our Australian market which is a very good thing.

[BATattack]

This is how a "real" gunsmith straightens barrels . . . . .says so in the title

https://youtu.be/VB1KfwffqHM

[David B]

https://gunsmagazine.com/gear/what-is-5r-rifling/

[Gyro]

Well I never Mr Krieger with bets on lots of horses. To appeal to the punters absolutely no doubt !!!!!!!!

Not so long ago he went on record to write he felt there was no advantage in the 5R profile, but the market desired it.

If shooter "x" wins with a 5R is it due to the barrel, or the multitude of other things the top shooters have worked out matter most ?

[Frank Green]

If you guys want to follow the thread on snipers hide....Dominic at SH is running the test. We donated a barrel and he got Krieger to donate a barrel. Also keep in mind and I said this in the thread....his sample size is only one barrel for each. You want really good data....you would do 10 of each. Same lot of steel, same chamber reamer, ammo etc....take as many variables out of it as you can. Right now from the way I read the thread and it's early on but the 5R is out shooting the 4 groove. Not by much but it is.

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/th ... st-8907990

Again and I'll say this for I don't know how many times....

All of the accuracy testing I've ever done, accuracy testing done by bullet makers and ammunition makers and or testing by ammo makers in regards to pressure and velocities....I say for the most part there is no accuracy difference etc...between the number and style of grooves.

The only exceptions I will throw in there...

6mm if you are building a 6PPC benchrest rifle you want conventional rifling. I don't care if it's a conventional 3 groove, 4 groove, 5 groove, 6 groove, 8 groove etc...and we've made them all. Why? The short bearing surface of the 65-68gr type bullets don't like the 5R rifling. The rifling does the driving and it's worse with a 68gr boat tail bullet. I tell guys the best you will get a 5R barrel to shoot with these short jacket bullets in 6mm is upper .2xx's to flat .3xx's. Remember these are the guys going for that perfect one hole group. If a guy insists on order a 5R barrel for a 6PPC bench gun. We will make it but I tell the customer straight up....I will not warranty it if you call and complain about the accuracy because I will say I told you so! Standard/conventional rifling is what you need for these. I have a conventional 5 groove barrel on my gun. It has shot groups in the upper .0xx's and I've shot it in match conditions and for 5 five shot groups the gun has averaged a .177" or so. Smallest group fired that day was a .098" if I recall correctly.

Now staying with 6mm....you shot the long heavy bullets like 90's, 105's, 107's etc...they don't care. I shoot 5R in these.

Also I do say and believe that the 5R rifling does help fight bullet failure. Bullet failure is a bigger problem in the smaller calibers like 224, 6mm, 6.5mm etc...The gentler angle on the sides of the lands in conjunction with the odd number of lands/grooves as the lands don't directly oppose one another. So the rifling doesn't upset the jacket of the bullet as much as it does in a even groove barrel. You don't get this benefit typically in a 3 groove barrel. Why? Usually in a 3 groove barrel the lands are much wider. So you always have a portion of one land opposing a portion of another.

Also late last year one of the bullet/ammo makers was putting on a presentation at a PRS match I was at. So I got to sit in on a class for a change instead of giving one. They where doing doppler radar testing on 6.5 bullets and it wasn't planned but had two guns in testing that day. One gun had a 4 groove barrel and the other with 5R rifling. What they seen in the testing and it repeated every single time was they found when the bullets where hitting the transonic range (chamber was 6.5CM) out around 800 yards or so....the bullets out of the 4 groove barrel always had a irregular flight before they settled back down for the remainder of the bullets flight. The bullets out of the 5R barrel never did anything weird at all. So they feel or should I say I feel after seeing the data it can help the flight of the bullet. Will this apply to every caliber etc...? Don't know. More testing would need to be done.

I also don't feel and have seen no proof of it...that the style of rifling and or the number of grooves has any bearing on pressure and or velocities. Contrary to what someone might say .... I say no. The actual bore size and groove size of the barrel (grooves more than the bore) will have a bigger impact on pressures and have a bigger impact on velocities. Yes actual chamber reamer spec amongst other things can effect this as well.

We've made ammunition test barrels in calibers like 224, 6mm, 6.5mm, 7mm, 30cal and 338. They've tested the saami spec. which it could be a 4 groove or 6 groove and have shot them side by side against a 5R and the ammunition/bullet makers all have told me....they cannot tell a difference per say.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

[Frank Green]

Also I do say and believe that the 5R rifling does help fight bullet failure. Bullet failure is a bigger problem in the smaller calibers like 224, 6mm, 6.5mm etc...The gentler angle on the sides of the lands in conjunction with the odd number of lands/grooves as the lands don't directly oppose one another. So the rifling doesn't upset the jacket of the bullet as much as it does in a even groove barrel. You don't get this benefit typically in a 3 groove barrel. Why? Usually in a 3 groove barrel the lands are much wider. So you always have a portion of one land opposing a portion of another.

To my comment above....Ammo and bullet makers have noticed the same thing as well. As recently as with in the last year.

[Gyro]

https://www.accurateshooter.com/shootin ... p-secrets/

This was written a few years back where John Whidden comments about driving the thin jacket Berger hunting bullet hard with a 5r barrel.

And cheers Frank for your normal very detailed accurate report.

[RmacG]

Hi All,

Silly Question and I don't know if this is the right place for it so if i'm not could I be redirected to the correct thread.

Can a .284 calibre barrel be Re-bored out to .308 or is there not enough material for it seeing theres only .024 thou to work with?

Thank you.

[Quick]

Hey mate,

Theoretically it maybe could be done. But would be very expensive and not much point then.

[Frank Green]

Hi All,

Silly Question and I don't know if this is the right place for it so if i'm not could I be redirected to the correct thread.

Can a .284 calibre barrel be Re-bored out to .308 or is there not enough material for it seeing theres only .024 thou to work with?

Thank you.

Can it be done...sure. I've taken like a Savage varmint barrel and (actually did two of them about a year and a half ago). One was a 22-250 and the other a 243win. and reamed them up to 6.5mm and rechambered them both to 6.5CM. Shoot great...no issues.

Yes we have done it to other calibers as well.

The reasons we don't offer it as a service are several. One we don't know the quality of the steel and how it's going to effect the tooling (especially when it wasn't our material to begin with). If the tooling gets damaged/wiped out....who's paying for it? If the hole in the barrel/or should I say if the barrel has a lot of run out....any work you do to it....it's going to follow the existing hole. Which if there is any issues and the barrel doesn't shoot etc...how do we warranty it?

Also there can be issues with protecting the threads, the amount of time in set up possibly can be an issue, how the bore reamer is going to come out as it enters the old chamber area and how your supporting the rod (I actually had to set the stop length and held onto the reamer rod. I don't recommend this as a normal practice....LOL!) and you have the same issue when you do the rifling. Yes I've heard of or could've made a chamber insert per say....but again your back to time and set up's.

In the end...it comes back to time and do the benefits out weigh the risks? 99% of the time it does not. Make/get a new barrel.

Kind of like setting a barrel back/rechambering it. Most of the time the costs involved...you cannot justify it unless your doing it on your own time. I also say....your not going to get the same barrel life out of the barrel like you did the first time. The wear is already approx. 6"-8" up in front of the chamber. So even though you will get into clean/better rifling....the wear is already there/been started.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels