Berger 180gn VLD verses 168gn VLD

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dave
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Re: Berger 180gn VLD verses 168gn VLD

#16 Postby dave » Wed Oct 07, 2015 7:45 pm

hi plumbs

yeah, the world of ballistics can provide differing results and many differing opinions and experiences.

since 2000 i have used 3 chronys (one got shot when i loaned it), i dropped the 2nd one and am presently using the 3rd chrony and a CED infra red model .

many other factors also need to considered and allowed for in our personal shooting/reloading/cleaning/accuracy standards/pressure monitoring and assessment indicators etc.

i know that many are content to and achieve excellent results by running pressures which require full length sizing or shoulder bumping after each shot or at regular intervals.

personally, being pretty lazy and trying to avoid regular neck turning and case forming etc, i prefer to run pressure levels which shoot to my accuracy standards and also maximise case life.

apart from keeping an eye on loose primer removal/seating and case head expansion etc, i regularly remove the firing pin and cycle the cases for all my rifles through the respective chambers to check for and monitor chambering and case extraction ease or difficulty. by doing this i can ensure hopefully that in the next match i will not be caught with the problems associated with chambering/extraction etc.

so i suppose just like the old adage “on the many ways to skin a cat" there are many opinions and the odd fact on the many and varied facets of precision shooting and the associated procedures and skills necessary to achieve the required standards.

cheers
dave g

DannyS
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Re: Berger 180gn VLD verses 168gn VLD

#17 Postby DannyS » Wed Oct 07, 2015 7:58 pm

Only one to picture to look at, but it seems to be pretty high pressure.
You might as well be yourself, everyone else is already taken.

Norm
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Re: Berger 180gn VLD verses 168gn VLD

#18 Postby Norm » Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:13 pm

Dave,
A bit off topic but the pressure that you are happy with may be less than what others are happy to run at. That's just a personal thing.

You say you don't FL size cases. I do every time, so can run at higher pressure without having tight cases.
Your Tobler barrels may be tighter than others are using.
Your gunsmith may polish his chambers which will result in high pressure at lower powder charges.
You may have more joint movement on your barrel threads?

Using palma brass does help with case life in the 7-08ai. Below are some fired Lapua cases both LR primer and SR primer Palma versions, that have been reloaded over 8 times each. I have never had a blown primer.
The Palma cases are good for higher pressure than the standard LR cases. About 50fps I would say.

Image

Image

KHGS
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Re: Berger 180gn VLD verses 168gn VLD

#19 Postby KHGS » Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:37 pm

plumbs7 wrote:
dave wrote:having used and played with a number of 7mm's since 2000, i am amazed with some of the velocities quoted in this discussion.

i am not saying they have not and are not being achieved, but in my rifles i could not successfully run these velocities without enduring excessive pressure and short case life.

maybe the apparent strength of savage actions ??? and the indicated accuracy of my chronographs might be responsible for my “on average much lower velocities”achieved in the rifles/calibres referenced as follows.

the acceptable pressure/ working velocities i could achieve were:-

7x53 improved (7mm/30wsm case) on a savage action with 28" tobler barrel (9.5 twist) - 168vld @ 2920fps 175 sierras @ 2860fps (note 180's were not attainable at the time)

7x57 improved -barnard action - 28" tobler barrel (9.5 twist) - 175 sierras @ 2700 fps-162 a max @ 2750fps (at 2810fps primers blew) - 168 vld @ 2720fps

7x63 (280 ackley reamer ran in short to suit 30-06 lapua brass) savage action 30" tobler barrel (9”twist)- 175 sierras @ 2840fps- 168 vld @ 2880 fps – 162 a max- 3010fps- 180 vld @ 2750fps-

280 ackley-savage action-28” tobler 10” twist (won’t stabilise anything over 168grains to 1000yds) - 162 amax@2920fps - 168 vlds @ 2820fps

7x63 –savage action-28”kreiger (9”twist)- 175 sierras @ 2720fps (2780fps excessive pressure) -162 a max@ 2880fps -168vld @2800fps- 180 vld/hybrids @ 2700fps

7mm Jacko (similar to 7mm Boo Boo) – big BAT action 30”Bartlein barrel (9” twist) - 180vld/hybrids @ 3050fps (near max) - 175 sierras @ 3080fps -162 a max @ 3240fps (near MAX)

cheers
dave g

Thanks Dave for sharing that info as its very interesting . Maybe try with another chrony ? It's seems slow.
As for amazed . Like I said before , I am amazed what my barrel is achieving with 180's but is showing small signs of pressure


Image

Hmm to me that pic shows a bit more than a small sign of pressure, I would not personally run with that level of pressure in my loads, but then I am a little on the conservative side :roll: .
Keith H.

Longranger
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Re: Berger 180gn VLD verses 168gn VLD

#20 Postby Longranger » Thu Oct 08, 2015 7:22 pm

That looks somewhere north of 62000PS... Just a guesstimate though.

AlanF
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Re: Berger 180gn VLD verses 168gn VLD

#21 Postby AlanF » Thu Oct 08, 2015 7:47 pm

Yes. primer looks very flat and cratered. Not my cup of tea either. Maybe 284 Win users should be thankful that the primer pockets are vulnerable. It stops us from pushing too hard and getting other pressure problems. :D

plumbs7
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Re: Berger 180gn VLD verses 168gn VLD

#22 Postby plumbs7 » Thu Oct 08, 2015 7:58 pm

Longranger wrote:That looks somewhere north of 62000PS... Just a guesstimate though.

I respect Keith's opinion a lot ! That was in the middle of the afternoon at Gundy opm. It shot very well!

I will be keeping an eye on it and will back the load of as Summer comes . 2209 does seem a little temp sensitive as much as 2208 in my 308 between winter and summer . It is pushing the limit for a medium cartridge . Anyway don't want to turn this into another blog as there is already 5 pages else where, enough to put any enthusiast asleep. If u like , I'll keep everyone posted on the 7-08 blog about load and pressure!
Still over the moon with it !

On the same note some of the velocties that Ftr guys pushing 215's and the amount of powder behind those pills makes me shake my head with the lil 308 win. But they are very successful . Pushing the boundaries I guess!
Regards Graham Sells.

macguru
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Re: Berger 180gn VLD verses 168gn VLD

#23 Postby macguru » Thu Oct 08, 2015 8:01 pm

A 7 SAUM will give you 2900-2950fps, with a 180gr vld pill and its easy on the cases if you use 2213sc, which burns very clean in our rifles (about 59-60gr 2213sc)

I am hoping to get 2850 fps with the 195gr VLD. Since Berger are sending me a sample pack of just 5 whole bullets, it may be a while before i can confirm this :)
id quod est

Longranger
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Re: Berger 180gn VLD verses 168gn VLD

#24 Postby Longranger » Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:12 am

It might pay to check for case head expansion with a mic.

Some ftr guys are running pressures well in excess of the SAAMI limit of 62000psi. Lapua Palma brass used only and then only with a good tough primer like a Remington 7 1/2 Benchrest.
Barnards are strong but even they would be flogged at some of the pressures being run. I wonder about liability should anything let go.. While not likely, pressures are well above design spec.

dave
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Re: Berger 180gn VLD verses 168gn VLD

#25 Postby dave » Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:23 am

Loneranger

I could not agree more with your statement.

Many may not have considered that, from a design point of view, that firearms are “pure and simple pressure vessels”.

And, despite the best efforts of, manufacturers, metallurgists, QC personnel and the considerable in built factor of safety considerations etc , even at normal designed working pressures, due to material imperfections, machining errors, incorrect heat treatment processes etc ,it is possible for firearms/components to seize, stretch and sometimes explode.

For whatever reasons when loaded to extreme and excessive pressures (above the elastic limits of, primers, work hardened and continually full length sized cases and including actions and barrels) the safety margin for shooters and those nearby is considerably reduced and in the right circumstances can be extremely dangerous.

Perhaps if strain gauges were less expensive and more readily available and suitable for firearms applications, shooters would not have to rely on guesswork, the questionable opinions of others and theory to monitor or assess the pressures they are reloading to.

They would actually have factual data, which in collaboration with the recommended and safe working pressures would enable them to adjust their loads accordingly, and have the added bonus of ensuring the safety of themselves and others and the prolonged long term service life of their firearms and components.

Personally, i would not feel comfortable and would prefer not to shoot in the vicinity of shooters who load to extremes.

cheers
dave g

Norm
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Re: Berger 180gn VLD verses 168gn VLD

#26 Postby Norm » Fri Oct 09, 2015 11:30 am

Dave,

Maybe you would like to start your own thread on case pressure and more your comments over to that.
This thread is on the merits of 168gn Berger VLD's verses the 180gn Berger VLD's.

KHGS
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Re: Berger 180gn VLD verses 168gn VLD

#27 Postby KHGS » Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:33 pm

plumbs7 wrote:
Longranger wrote:That looks somewhere north of 62000PS... Just a guesstimate though.

I respect Keith's opinion a lot ! That was in the middle of the afternoon at Gundy opm. It shot very well!

I will be keeping an eye on it and will back the load of as Summer comes . 2209 does seem a little temp sensitive as much as 2208 in my 308 between winter and summer . It is pushing the limit for a medium cartridge . Anyway don't want to turn this into another blog as there is already 5 pages else where, enough to put any enthusiast asleep. If u like , I'll keep everyone posted on the 7-08 blog about load and pressure!
Still over the moon with it !

On the same note some of the velocties that Ftr guys pushing 215's and the amount of powder behind those pills makes me shake my head with the lil 308 win. But they are very successful . Pushing the boundaries I guess!
Regards Graham Sells.


Graham, there are several issues at play when we set out to develop an accurate load in any cartridge. The first issue to always consider is one of safety!!!! That is not only the shooter's safety but that of those around you, this is in fact a responsibility of the reloader which must never be undertaken lightly.
Please understand I am not criticising you or anyone else who frequents this site. The pic in the discussion indicates to me that the pressure MAY be above safe limits with that particular case! The fact that the load shoots well is NOT an indication of safety, many HOT loads display outstanding accuracy which is testament to the flexibility of the powders we have available to us today & can lead the uninformed down the path to unwittingly overloading their ammo in order to "up" the performance. There is a rule in engine performance that nothing outpaces "cubic inches" the same rule applies to cartridges, if you want speed safely use a bigger case!!
The "strength" of your action is only that of your brass case which is around 70000psi CUP or roughly 80000psi Piezio, both rates of pressure measuring methods are in use today. American manuals mostly (almost always) use the CUP measurement & ADI use mostly Piezio measurements, both are used in their latest handbook depending on the caliber. One should NEVER exceed 62000psi Piezio or 54000psi CUP no matter how well the load shoots.
I & others have spoken before of multiple accuracy nodes, the trick is to choose the right node! This node will be somewhere around 59 to 60000psi Piezio, in this range you will achieve good accuracy, case life & barrel life & you will preserve your safety & your action life will be extended.
All powders are temperature sensitive!!! Adi powders are LESS sensitive than others, if the load is maximum as so many are, the sensitivity will be more evident. This is why the node I have referred to above is wider than those at higher pressures.
In my many years as a full time professional gunsmith I have inspected & analysed many blown up rifles & pistols, not to mention other types of "firearm incidents" believe me nobody wants to risk being involved in any of these by "pushing the boundaries". In over 90% of these "incidents" human error was to blame. Now before the "experts" decide to jump on me, these are my opinions only & are based on observations during over 55 years of reloading & close to 40 years of professional gunsmithing.
Keith H. [-o<

dave
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Re: Berger 180gn VLD verses 168gn VLD

#28 Postby dave » Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:51 pm

in case it is of any interest or relevance, information on strain gauges and their application for firearm safety and pressure testing can be viewed at :-

https://www.shootingsoftware.com/pressure.htm

http://www.ktgunsmith.com/straingauge.htm

cheers
dave g

Tim N
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Re: Berger 180gn VLD verses 168gn VLD

#29 Postby Tim N » Tue Oct 27, 2015 7:18 am

Hi All,
I have some 168gn bergers to try in my 7mm
I'm looking for the difference in load weight between the 168 and 180
If someone can share some load data for a 284:
180 gn using 2209 to get around 2850
Same set up with 168gn using 2209 for 2950
Velocities are of course approximate
Thanks
We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training. Archilochos 680-645 BC

KHGS
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Re: Berger 180gn VLD verses 168gn VLD

#30 Postby KHGS » Tue Oct 27, 2015 7:54 am

Tim N wrote:Hi All,
I have some 168gn bergers to try in my 7mm
I'm looking for the difference in load weight between the 168 and 180
If someone can share some load data for a 284:
180 gn using 2209 to get around 2850
Same set up with 168gn using 2209 for 2950
Velocities are of course approximate
Thanks


I find a half a grain more 2209 in my 280HI is good for the 168grn bullets. This yields around 2940 fps for me at very moderate pressures & X ring grouping. Bear in mind my case is around 4 grains larger capacity than the .284. However the .5 grain addition would be a good starting point for you depending on how hard you are pushing your .284!!!! My 180 grn load gives me around 2840 fps with moderate pressures. I have ran my 180 grn load up 1.5 grains higher with no accuracy advantage, so I settled on the lower wider node. Heading towards 1500 rounds now with NO firecracking, 2209 is a lovely powder to work with where it is applicable & kind to throats when run correctly in the right case. =D> .
Keith H.


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