Upgrading my 308 Dies

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Gerard
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Upgrading my 308 Dies

#1 Postby Gerard » Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:46 pm

Hi Guys,

A have a nice voucher burning a hole in my pocket. Thanks Crows Nest Goombungee RC and The Barn.

Im considering putting cash on top and upgrading from my 2nd hand Lynan Dies (No bushing or collets) to Redding Competition dies.

(here is a link to the set online: https://www.midwayusa.com/product/79242 ... winchester)

I don't yet neck turn, but guess if I opt for the above I will need to start immediately.
And also figure out which bushings to buy to suit my batch of HBC 155's.

Is going with the Redding Comp Set (includes a body die), a good step for improved accuracy.
Im aware of the cheaper Lee Collet Die option, but given a choice (and voucher!!) which would you go with?

Cheers,
Gerard.

Jase PTRC
Posts: 221
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2014 11:15 pm
Location: Adelaide SA "PTRC"

Re: Upgrading my 308 Dies

#2 Postby Jase PTRC » Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:45 pm

I use this exact set, i had no issues with using them on cases that had not been neck turned. I suspect if you are using un turned Lapua cases you will need a .336 bushing. I have .336 .334. the latter was what i used for Winchester cases as the necks are quite thin.

Brett M
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:34 pm

Re: Upgrading my 308 Dies

#3 Postby Brett M » Thu Feb 23, 2017 5:39 pm

Neck turning only really becomes an issue if using very tight neck chambers. I personally use the Redding bushing dies (fl/ns) and comp seater with good results. A .336 bushing if using unturned lapua cases will work with the hbc projectile no worries!

johnk
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Re: Upgrading my 308 Dies

#4 Postby johnk » Thu Feb 23, 2017 6:03 pm

I would caution you against the Redding Comp dies.

(1) Though you might get away with it if you stay with TR/FS loadings, The die does not respond well to seating long projectiles, even more so if a compressedish load is involved. Redding happily replaced the floating plunger & sleeve on mine after pushing 200 SMKs & 210 SMKs & Sierras caused the plunger mouth to bell & chew out the mating section of the sleeve. They cautioned me then not to seat projectiles with long bearing surfaces & definitely never with a compressed load. I set it up for Dyer HBCs & used it for a single purpose until I stopped shooting FS & sold it off. A Forster is quite similar but has a tad more looseness in tolerances & has never failed me.

If it be known, though, I prefer to seat with the Wilson stainless micro adjustable dies & an arbor press. Nice feel there.

(2) I get a measurably straighter case with little effort by prepping my .308 cases with a Lee collet die, for which I have multiple spare mandrils, having collected the bits from shooters who destroyed their dies misusing them. See the instruction by John Valentine appended.

(3) I like my Redding body dies. I have a standard & a small base one, but I regret not having converted the former into a shoulder bump die before this.

John

Using The Lee Collet Die.
I started using Lee collet dies when they first came on the market and have found that they are very good for the purposes for which they were designed .
I have found that there is a lack of understanding of how to use the die properly and as a result people fail to see the advantages that the die can deliver over standard neck sizing dies.
This is not the fault of the product , it is just a lack of understanding of how the die works and what it will feel like when you operate the press correctly.
Standard dies use a neck expanding ball on the decapping rod and size by extruding the neck through a hole and then drag the expander ball back through the inside neck.
The collet die achieves neck sizing by using a split collet to squeeze the outside of the case neck onto a central mandrel which has the decapping pin in it’s base .
One advantage is that there is no stretching or drawing action on the brass.
The inside neck diameter is controlled by the diameter of the mandrel and to some extent by the amount of adjustment of the die and the pressure applied to the press .
This results in less misalignment than can occur in standard dies because of any uneven neck wall thickness in the cases .
Cases will last longer in the neck area and require less trimming. If cases have very uneven neck wall thickness then this can cause problems for the collet die they definitely work smoother and more accurately with neck turned cases but it is not essential.
When you first receive the die unscrew the top cap and pull it apart check that everything is there also that the splits in the collet have nothing stuck in them then inspect the tapered surface on the top end of the collet and the internal taper of the insert to make sure there are no metal burs that might cause it to jamb.
Next get some good quality high pressure grease and put a smear onto the tapered surface of the collet .
Put it back together and screw it into the press just a few threads for now . The best type of press for this die is a press of moderate compound leverage that travels over centre .
Over centre means that when the ram reaches its full travel up it will stop and come back down a tiny amount even though the movement on the handle is continued through to the stop .
eg. is an RCBS Rockchucker.
This arrangement gives the best feel for a collet die sizing operation.
Place the shell holder in the ram and bring the ram up to full height then screw the die down until the collet skirt just touches on the shell holder , then lower the ram .
Take a case to be sized that has a clean neck inside and out and the mouth chamfered and place it in the shell holder.
Raise the ram gently feeling for resistance if none , lower the ram.
Screw the die down a bit at a time .
If you get lock up ( ram stops before going over centre) before the correct position is found then back it off and make sure the collet is loose and not jammed up in the die before continuing then raise the ram feeling for any resistance , keep repeating this until you feel the press handle resist against the case neck just at the top of the stroke as the press goes over centre and the handle kinder locks in place .
This takes much less force than a standard die and most people don’t believe any sizing has taken place .
Take the case out and try a projectile of the correct caliber to see how much sizing has taken place.
If it’s still too loose adjust the die down one eighth of a turn lock it finger tight only and try again .
Once the die is near the correct sizing position it takes very little movement of the die to achieve changes in neck seating tension .
This is where most people come undone , they move the die up and down too much and it either locks up or doesn’t size at all .
It will still size a case locking it up but you have no control over how much pressure is applied and some people lean on the press handle to the point of damaging the die. A press like the RCBS Rockchucker , that goes over centre each time gives you a definite stopping point for the ram and the pressure that you apply .
There is a small sweet spot for correct collet die adjustment and you must find it , once found , how sweet it is ! Advantages : With a press that travels over centre it is possible to adjust the neck seating tension within a very limited zone. No lubricant is normally required on the case necks during sizing .

If you still cant get enough neck tension to hold the bullet properly for a particular purpose then you will have to polish down the mandrel.
Be careful poilishing the mandrel down and only do it a bit at a time as a few thou can be removed pretty quickly if you overdo it.
You can't get extra neck tension by just applying more force. The amount of adjustment around the sweet spot is very limited and almost not noticable without carrying out tests.
For example , to go from a .001 neck tension to a .002 or .003 neck tension you would be talking about polishing down the mandrel.

There are some other advantages but I will leave you the pleasure of discovering them .
One disadvantage that I have found with the collet die is that it needs good vertical alignment of the case as it enters the die or case damage may result so go slowly.
Also some cases with a very thick internal base can cause problems with the mandrel coming in contact with the internal base before the sizing stroke is finished.
If pressure is continued the mandrel can push up against the top cap and cause damage . If you are getting lock up and cant get the right sizing sweet spot, then check that the mandrel is not too long for the case you can place a washer over the case and onto the shell holder and size down on that.
It will reduce the length of neck sized and give the mandrel more clearance. If it sizes Ok after adding the washer then the mandrel could be hitting the base.
This is not a usually problem once you learn how to use them .
The harder the brass is the more spring back it will have so very hard brass will exhibit less sizing than soft brass because it will spring away from the mandrel more. If this is happening to excess then use new cases or anneal the necks.
Freshly annealed brass can drag on the mandrel a bit in certain cases because it will spring back less and result in a tighter size diameter.
I have experienced it. I always use some dry lube on the inside and outside if I get any draging effect . Normally you dont need lube.
I make up a special batch 1/3 Fine Moly powder. 1/3 Pure graphite. 1/3 Aluminiumised lock graphite. Rub your fingers around the neck and It sticks very well to the necks by just dipping it in and out and tapping it to clear the inside neck . After a few cases it coats up the mandrel .
Other dry lubricants would work also.
Use the same process for normal neck sizing also.

I noticed a definite improvement in the accuracy of my 22-250Rem. as soon as I started using a Lee collet die instead of my original standard neck die.
Readers are encouraged to utilise the benefits of responsible reloading at all times. Although the author has taken care in the writing of these articles no responsibility can be taken by the author or publisher as a result of the use of this information.
John Valentine. © 21/01/2002.

Lee Bament
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 4:11 pm

Re: Upgrading my 308 Dies

#5 Postby Lee Bament » Thu Feb 23, 2017 7:03 pm

Ditto on the Redding Dies. Buy once cry once. Redding Competition dies are expensive but machined/ground to close tolerances and hold their value.

I have used my set for years with no issues ever and would buy the same again if I was starting over. I 'Body size' fired cases to minus 0 to 1/2 thou (Checked with an RCBS Precision Mic- slower than calipers but absolutely repeatable readings every time)) and then ' neck size' the no turn Lapua Palma brass with a .335 bushing. This Redding two stage sizing process works. Consider an optional VLD seating stem in the seater.

I am a strong proponent of "If you can't measure it you can't manage it". So occasionally check concentricity at each stage during the reloading process to make sure something hasn't varied. Loaded rounds generally come out with less than 2 thou run out. Some run true and the odd one is just over. You don't normally get this consistency with other 7/8" die sets.

Of interest, I am currently Seating with a K&M Standard Force Arbor press and Wilson seater although the Redding Seater, always seated projectiles quite concentric. So I sometimes swap between the two. I use a long powder drop funnel (Forster) to avoid compressing powder in the seating process.
Fapope

Lee Bament
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 4:11 pm

Re: Upgrading my 308 Dies

#6 Postby Lee Bament » Thu Feb 23, 2017 7:07 pm

I should add I only load 155gr.
Fapope

Steve N
Posts: 462
Joined: Tue May 14, 2013 8:16 pm
Location: Gippsland Victoria.

Re: Upgrading my 308 Dies

#7 Postby Steve N » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:42 pm

Ditto what JohnK says. Lee collet dies are excellent if used correctly! I reckon bushing dies are good for really accurately turned necks only. However if you only need to shoot 5's they will probably do a T/R shooter... :)

johnk
Posts: 2211
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2008 7:55 pm
Location: Brisbane

Re: Upgrading my 308 Dies

#8 Postby johnk » Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:58 am

Steve N wrote:However if you only need to shoot 5's they will probably do a T/R shooter...

.... which reminds me, the flu jabs should be coming soon. :roll:

bsouthernau
Posts: 696
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:31 pm

Re: Upgrading my 308 Dies

#9 Postby bsouthernau » Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:48 am

johnk wrote:I would caution you against the Redding Comp dies.

(1) Though you might get away with it if you stay with TR/FS loadings, The die does not respond well to seating long projectiles, even more so if a compressedish load is involved.


This hasn't been my experience. I think I seat my 210s further out than most and have had no troubles with the Redding competition seater. Away from home I use the Wilson dies due to greater portability, at home I use a Redding bushing neck sizer and competition seater. I can't tell the difference in the final product. Rarely test for concentricity as it's largely a waste of time.

Barry

Gerard
Posts: 160
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2016 1:36 pm
Location: Rifle Range QLD

Re: Upgrading my 308 Dies

#10 Postby Gerard » Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:56 pm

Thanks for the input as always guys.
..yes even the TR dig! hahah..

I guess you missed my comment on the New HBC Projectiles thread in relation to difference in projectile weights in the same batch 154.8 to 155.6.. so here it is:
" Gradual incremental projectile weight changes could be pretty transparent when shooting and countered with minor adjustment, but a sudden difference of 0.8 would I assume likely be dropped points for you F-Class folk.
Us TR shooters would just take it in our stride and adjust for a new natural point of aim with the projectile weight difference in the chamber.. Yes, were that good ;) "

Im surprised I didn't get a reaction to that one!!

mike H
Posts: 623
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 5:34 pm
Location: JUNEE NSW

Re: Upgrading my 308 Dies

#11 Postby mike H » Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:27 pm

Gerard wrote:Thanks for the input as always guys.
..yes even the TR dig! hahah..

I guess you missed my comment on the New HBC Projectiles thread in relation to difference in projectile weights in the same batch 154.8 to 155.6.. so here it is:
" Gradual incremental projectile weight changes could be pretty transparent when shooting and countered with minor adjustment, but a sudden difference of 0.8 would I assume likely be dropped points for you F-Class folk.
Us TR shooters would just take it in our stride and adjust for a new natural point of aim with the projectile weight difference in the chamber.. Yes, were that good ;) "

Im surprised I didn't get a reaction to that one!!

You did,I chose to keep it to myself,actually I thought,that Gerad has developed a sense of humour.
Mike.


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