223 SHOOTERS

[Matt P]

Hi All
As most of you will know the NRAA has approved the 155 Dyer HBC for TR and FS. Up untill this bullet being approved the playing field between 223 and 308 has been pretty level, with the approval of this new bullet it will give the 308 a advantage over the 223 (in theory anyway). I wrote to the NRAA asking if they had concidered an additional higher BC bullet for 223 and they haven't as no state or territory has asked for one.
So if you shoot 223 and think we need an additional bullet time to get onto your S or T association and get them to do something about it !!!

Matt P

[Woody_rod]

I have shot both 308 and 223 at various ranges. I agree that the SMK does suffer in wind a bit at longer ranges, but don't agree that they were equal to the 155 SMK generally. I think the 80gr SMK had a slight edge, particularly at shorter ranges.

I doubt the new Dyer will make that much difference. It is still only 155 grains in 30 cal, thereby being not ideal for 1000y use. If it were a smaller cal in 155 gr sure.

[Malcolm Hill]

Matt P
As far as I was aware when the discussion regarding the adoption of the new Dyer H.B.C. 155 projectile was undertaken at the South Australian Rifle Ass. council meeting it was on the understanding that if approved a better B.C. 223 bullet should be looked at as well. This should have been passed on to the National body as a recommendation from S.A. at least. The 80gn Hornady Amax would be a closer match than the Sierra but the Berger is the only one I can see that will actually equal the new Dyer on B.C. The way things have been has given good competition between the two calibres although experience has showed that the 308 has had an edge at the longer ranges in tricky wind conditions seeming to suffer less with elevation problems and I put most of that down to the higher twist rate of the 223. The new Dyer will definately increase the advantage of the 308 over the 223 at the longs in my opinion. I don't want to see the 223 become a non competitive rifle as it will probably impact on new members joining the sport as most of them get started with the smaller calibre (and stay with it) because it is pleasent to shoot while still being competitive.
Regards Malcolm.

[Woody_rod]

How can the 223 "become non-competitive" when currently, I see shooters consistently shoot whole days without dropping a point???

It will come down to the stuff it always comes down to - the shooter and a half decent rifle. Leaning on the crutch of XYZ has higher BC, will only give people an excuse for poor shooting.

This is pure wowserism (is that a word?).

[Matt P]

How can the 223 "become non-competitive" when currently, I see shooters consistently shoot whole days without dropping a point???

It will come down to the stuff it always comes down to - the shooter and a half decent rifle. Leaning on the crutch of XYZ has higher BC, will only give people an excuse for poor shooting.

This is pure wowserism (is that a word?).

Woody_rod
First off how about a real name ???
Secondly what the *%^$ is wowserism ???

Matt Paroz

[Woody_rod]

Real name, Rod Shehan from Western Australia. Woodanilling in fact. Co-owner Woody Engineering - you will hear more about us later...

Wowsers are people making mountains out of molehills....not meant to be offensive, hoope none was taken, as none was intended.

[Matt P]

Rod
No offence taken just like to know who I'm talking to.
This difference in BC maybe small but it also maybe the difference between winning and losing, lets just say your're down at 1000yrds last stage of the Queens and you get an inner just outside the bull, that small BC advantage the HBC gives would probably be a bull.
At the end of the day why shouldn't the 223 shooter be able to use a bullet of similar BC when it's readily avalible ???
Also not all barrels like all bullets, the 308 shooter has 4 to choose from why shouldn't the 223 shooter have the same ???

Matt P

[Woody_rod]

I believe, from what I have seen during competitions, that the 223 has had a clear advantage. I believe that now the opposite of what you propose is happening - the 308 is now going to be equal to the 223.

I believe scoreboards, not BC numbers.

Also, given the pretty similar performance (in reality) between the 223 and 308 (as it was), the 223's real advantage shooting over a rest is a big one - less recoil. I watch most weekends people shooting both 223 and 308, with the 308 jumping a good inch or two off the front rest, and the 223 doing nothing.

Odds are that the same recoil (i.e., repeatable shot) is easier to achieve with less recoil.

I agree that if there are 4 bullets available for the 308, the same should be had for the 223.

[Malcolm Hill]

Matt P
Well put Matt, that' exactly the way I see it. As an ex 'F' open shooter you would be well aware of how the higher B.C bullets become a distinct advantage in shifting wind conditions. Most 'F'open rifles I have shot alongside of with my 'F' std 223 only use half the weather setting that I need so if there is a wind change they don't see they only get blown half as far out. It's all dependent on the bullet B.C (given similar velocity)and not the accuracy of the round as most good rifles can be made to group in a similar manner at the shorter ranges when there is little wind.One wonders if Woody-Rod might not feel slightly disadvantaged if he had to use a 223 on a tricky windy day if everyone else had 6.5/284's or similar.
Regards Malcolm

[Woody_rod]

I don't feel disadvantaged. No need to start down that road. I think hiding behind numbers and technical details allows others an advantage.

I have only shot in rifle shooting for about 22 months. Take from that whatever you want. People who know my shooting aren't so fast to make such judgements.

Like I said, I believe the scoreboard. Everything else is talk at the bar afterwards....

[Chopper]

The 90 grainers are an option but safety would be an issue as there are enough pressure problems with the 80s,they would require 6.5 twist barrels and i know from previous test done with them they are capable of blowing up other projectiles,when you look at where we are heading we are all just about open shooters, or it wont be long at this rate and we will all be there,its only a MATTer of time,CHOP.

[pjifl]

Currently, 308 offers some advantages at long range. No long range shooting team will consider them although I think this is taken too far but over say 100 counting shots with the same coaching, 308 will offer up a few more points.

In my opinion it is slight but in very cold weather is definitely there at 1000 y. - and the gap may widen.

Most 223's which have been built as serious target rifles are newer and seem to be operated by progressive shooters. They dont use old club rifles and still expect to be competitive.

There are 2 main reasons 223's are not very common. The huge pool of 308's and a perception that they are not competitive.

I dont want them to die out and very much like the 223 and the perception problem is very real.

For this reason, I do believe that some pressure should be placed on administrators to be more liberal with bullet choice - mainly to establish the principle of equality. The AMAX type solves the problem rather well being useable in 8 inch twist barrels. I would not go for the 90 grain bullet and consider that it will have problems because faster twist solves one problem but produces others. And barrel life will become even worst.

Peter Smith

[Guest]

Matt, I associated wowsers with Inspector gaget, but had no idea what the $%#@ it was either, so i found out, this will help Woody, so he can use it again, perhaps in the context it was meant.

For the fictional dog known as Wowser, see Cubitus
Wowsers! is also a signature expression used by the cartoon character Inspector Gadget.
Wowser is a slang expression, most commonly heard in Australian and New Zealand English. It originated in Australia, at first carrying a similar meaning to 'lout', i.e. an annoying or disruptive person. However, around the beginning of the 20th century it shifted to its present meaning: one whose overdeveloped sense of morality drives them to deprive others of their pleasures. At this time, the term was particularly applied to members of temperance groups such as the antipodean branches of the Woman's Christian Temperance Union.

John Norton (January 25, 1858 - April 9, 1916), editor of Truth, claimed to have invented the word in 1899 [1] and the term was frequently used by artist and author Norman Lindsay, who fought many celebrated battles with "Wowsers" over the sexual content in his art and writing.

The Australian writer C.J. Dennis defined it thus: 'Wowser: an ineffably pious person who mistakes this world for a penitentiary and himself for a warder'.

In recent years, the term has been most often applied to morality-oriented politicians Fred and Elaine Nile and Brian Harradine.[citation needed]

Americans are likely to associate the word with H. L. Mencken:

"In the same way the Archidamian War is more interesting than the fiscal cares of the Four Hundred, and the craft of Pericles takes precedence of his abilities as tax-collector and wowser." American Mercury "The Greeks"
'Wowser' is also the word given to describe a puritanical fanatic [US english]

[Woody_rod]

Thanks for that, what about the 223 discussion?

Peter, your post is interesting, do you have any evidence to support the statement:

No long range shooting team will consider them although I think this is taken too far but over say 100 counting shots with the same coaching, 308 will offer up a few more points.

[Tom Lowndes]

Woody Rod

I doubt the new Dyer will make that much difference. It is still only 155 grains in 30 cal, thereby being not ideal for 1000y use. If it were a s
smaller cal in 155 gr sure.

I take it you have tried the new Dyer Bullet at 1000 yds?

Tom Lowndes