Projectile & Primer Supplies - We need to something...

[PeteFox]

So it's back to 144 grn 30 cal fmj, How many are going to be happy with that?

No one
Not much point in half moa gun with a 2 moa projectile.

but neither is anyone happy paying $1.20 per projectile
Pete

[Aus9914]

So it's back to 144 grn 30 cal fmj, How many are going to be happy with that?

No one
Not much point in half moa gun with a 2 moa projectile.

but neither is anyone happy paying $1.20 per projectile
Pete

Very true, but they are also not happy not being able to shoot as well.

So if this is what the future looks like, and we are forced to revert back to a less accurate projectile the target scoring area dimensions come into the conversation as well. The current dimensions came about because of the accuracy of handloaded rnds with match projectiles. They've done it three time already with the transition from factory 7.62 to Fclass already so there shouldn't be too much grief going back the other way.

[Barry Davies]

Recently purchased a quantity of 2156 Sierras for $650 for 1200, that's just over 54 c each.
So, who's ripping who off?

[loneranger]

Aus9914 you talking about just domestic use again. I am talking about someone who has the ability to export - remember there is an absolute shortage worldwide right now, not just of projectiles but primers. With all the drama around the world do you think the situation is going to get better?
We need to stop talking about NRAA not being large enough, it’s a silly argument as I have said several times over. Example - Sweden manufacture fighter jets, cars and lots of sophisticated machinery - the country has a tiny population, so that same old numb argument fails here doesn’t it? How can little Sweden produce fighter jets commercially? It’s because firstly they make quality stuff and secondly they are major exporters, so obviously the local Swedes benefit also.
We need to think more creatively and have less squirrel thinking…

[Aus9914]

Sweden never made fighter jets commercially - the only foreign sale they had line up, to India, was blocked by the US.

By all means put YOUR money where your mouth is, and if you get past ITAR as Bob struggled with post 9/11, make as many projectiles as you like. But learn from the experience of those that have gone before you and sort out your QC!

BTW, defence and police don't buy projectiles - they buy loaded ammunition, that has a proven QC process.

[Barossa_222]

Aus9914 you talking about just domestic use again. I am talking about someone who has the ability to export - remember there is an absolute shortage worldwide right now, not just of projectiles but primers. With all the drama around the world do you think the situation is going to get better?
We need to stop talking about NRAA not being large enough, it’s a silly argument as I have said several times over. Example - Sweden manufacture fighter jets, cars and lots of sophisticated machinery - the country has a tiny population, so that same old numb argument fails here doesn’t it? How can little Sweden produce fighter jets commercially? It’s because firstly they make quality stuff and secondly they are major exporters, so obviously the local Swedes benefit also.
We need to think more creatively and have less squirrel thinking…

I'm not really sure what you are wanting to achieve here. It all comes down to viability and profitability. How much money do you have to invest in tooling and manufacturing. Ken would be the fella to best explain what it would take. If there are big enough profit margins, there will be businesses willing to expand and invest. Maybe the profit line is too low for Thales to go into primer manufactering? Maybe Ken can't justify the financial risk or hasn't got the energy or business case to build a facility to compete with sierra and Berger. I don't know, all I know is if you work with what you've got you can get by. If you want to be able to run down to your association store for 100 primers and get quality projectiles for 50cents maybe you should consider golf?

[AlanF]

Not sure that large scale local manufacturing of reloading components would attract the required investment funds - and even if it did, would it solve the problem? The US has a large number of major manufacturers in the sector, and they're having similar shortages to us.

Unfortunately the worldwide shortages are across a wide range of products, and there's no sure way of predicting when it'll get better. I decided to give shooting away just over a year ago and go 4WDing instead. My Toyota was ordered in Feb last year and the latest advice is it might be here after an 18 month wait!

[loneranger]

Aghhhhhhh…..I knew this discussion would be highjacked by naysayers, that’s the very reason our sport is decline ! Barossa222 and Aus9914 your comments are retrograde and lacking imagination - I am trying to spark innovative positive thinking about improving the situation- granted you guys might be happy to leave things as is and continue to contribute to the decline of the sport or change hobbies to 4 wheel driving, but there others of us who want to try something different and actually GROW the sport. Unless you have something positive to contribute, I’d rather not hear the same old dumb arguments…

[Aus9914]

loneranger you would do well to learn and remember George Santayana's often quoted phrase: “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.” and Churchill's more direct paraphrasing: "‘Those who fail to learn from history are condemned to repeat it.’

If you truly want to grow the sport, stop preaching to the converted and start changing the minds of the politicians that deludedly think that by punishing law abiding citizens they are going to have even the remotest impact on criminals that will use whatever they want, wherever and whenever they like.

If you really want to grow the sport demonstrate a value that it provides to the country. Go and learn why the rifle club provisions were originally included in the Defence Act 1903 and then reflect on how far the sport has deviated from the original intent - comparing the number of calibers used in Fclass to the number of small arms calibers used by the ADF is a good start. Then consider that the entire ADF can't fill the MCG once and what that means to a country of this size that is already heavily in debt. Provide a nexus that will have an undeniably direct cost/training/resource benefit to the "commercial markets" you are trying to reach out to and profit off. Providing what every other manufacturer already can will just not cut it.

Make your argument so convincing that the bureaucrats that continually find new ways to interpret legislation to hinder our growth see the relevance clearly and actually become advocates that correct the paths of obstinate politicians. Take a good long hard look at why smallbore shooting has been taken out of schools - the obstacles placed in their paths that make it too onerous for the schools to manage are placed by the same people trying to restrict our growth. Change their minds.

Name calling and lazy, poorly researched arguments won't cut it.

[Barossa_222]

Aghhhhhhh…..I knew this discussion would be highjacked by naysayers, that’s the very reason our sport is decline ! Barossa222 and Aus9914 your comments are retrograde and lacking imagination - I am trying to spark innovative positive thinking about improving the situation- granted you guys might be happy to leave things as is and continue to contribute to the decline of the sport or change hobbies to 4 wheel driving, but there others of us who want to try something different and actually GROW the sport. Unless you have something positive to contribute, I’d rather not hear the same old dumb arguments…

I am all for growth, new ideas and better ways forward. I am genuinely curious as to how you propose to change things and improve component supply issues.
I have tried very hard to change things here for my own state association, but the push back from the majority of the membership who are just happy to exist is deafening. The majority of the "old guard" are not interested in moving forward, or existing past their own wants. The just want to buy their HBC's for 40 cents, shoot their 24 shots, have a beer and be home with the wife by 5pm. I applaud all those who have the strength and effort to try and be better and do better, but pie in the sky thinking won't get it done. Tell me how, where, why, when. Put a business case up that makes sense. Hell, show me how it will turn a profit and I'll throw some money in, but right now all you are doing is talking.

[jasmay]

Come on people, what is the point in getting snarky and bitchy with one another?

Dreaming & pie in the sky talking is how things start, without entrepreneurialism we’d have achieved very little as a species, don’t dishearten people who are thinking.

Here is some food for thought.

• NRAA >7500 members

• 7500 members shoot 25 shots a week

• that’s 9.7million projectiles

• average price at the moment is $1 a projectile

• $9.7million in potential sales before you go outside the NRAA

These are just very basic numbers, and it’s not a business case, but it does demonstrate scope, nothing wrong with pipe dreaming.

There are something like a million registered shooters in Australia, imagine if every registered shooter was encouraged to crowd fund a local manufacturer of ammunition components and donated just $100.

$100million to build a facility.

The largest ever crowd funded initiative was an online game, it pulled $500million in to develop it.

Author Brian Sanderson pulled in $40million from a crowd funding campaign to author 4 books.

Things are only pie in the sky if you believe they are, look at Elon & Tesla/Space-X

Que the nay-sayers……. But personally, I’d rather read another pie in the sky idea than a negative view!!

[loneranger]

Spot on jasmay now that’s what I am talking about. Great thoughts !
I wonder if any of the associations have had any dialogue with Thales about their future plans ? I heard that they might be looking at manufacturing primers, so projectiles might not be such a large step?
Lets the idea keep flowing….

[Aus9914]

• that’s 9.7million projectiles

9.7 million divided by 5 different calibers

• average price at the moment is $1 a projectile

• $9.7million in potential sales before you go outside the NRAA

ADF and police buy loaded ammunition with a proven QC - not projectiles and primers as individual components and not 5 different rifle calibers.

Do some research and find out what it costs to stop a production line to make changes to tooling or the finished product. Easiest way is to look at the options car makers provide and their cost.

There are something like a million registered shooters in Australia, imagine if every registered shooter was encouraged to crowd fund a local manufacturer of ammunition components and donated just $100.

Many of those million registered shooters have never bought a match projectile let alone a VLD projectile used by FClass competitors.

The NRAA had as part of their membership fees some time ago a portion that was set aside for national teams. That portion of the membership fees was cut because the members voted against it and didn't want to pay for something they were never likely to gain a benefit from.

By all means try crowd sourcing, but you need to face facts that this is the mentality you have within your own organization before looking outside to the wider population that has already been poisoned against the sport.

Que the nay-sayers……. But personally, I’d rather read another pie in the sky idea than a negative view!!

And you can stop your name calling. Facts don't care about your feelings.

[AlanF]

...Que the nay-sayers…….

Interested to know where that expression came from Jason, and what it means???

[jasmay]

...Que the nay-sayers…….

Interested to know where that expression came from Jason, and what it means???