Need for rule on incorrectly pulled target.

[Ken L]

I noticed recently a number of times that targets have been pulled with out the shooter firing a shot.
There are a number of reasons besides the marker having a moment.
(1) shot on wrong target
(2) shot on next target deflects off the frame of target into next impact zone
(3) unstable soil in impact zone falling due to sound of adjacent shot.

Now what we dont have as markers and butts officers in the rules is a clear procedure for returning the target to the firing position once the error has been discovered without causing a disadvantage to an F Class shooter who used his previous shot as a reference for correcting his next.
Some times I have seen the target returned CLEAN and sometimes with the spotter in place but no value disk and sometimes with both spotter and value disk in place and that can confuse the scorer and shooter alike.
If there is a rule please point it out to me.

[Guest]

Ken,
Rule 5.3.10 clearly says that the marker will on no account pull the target unless he is satisfied that a shot has hit the target, unless requested to do so by the Butts Officer.
So, what you describe is marker error probably brought about because the markers have not received the proper instructions.
Just the same, there is no procedure written for return of the target should the marker make a mistake. Rule 5.3.11 outlines the procedure a marker must follow on realizing he has made a mistake.
Barry

[balcom]

Ken,
You have been complaining for years now about the way some rules are put in the rule book and about the way councils go about thier business, now you are a NSW COUNCILOR here's you chance to show us what you can do,
Cheers
PeterH

[Ken L]

Peter
That is one of my intentions. This posting is to generate discussion on the rule regarding accidently pulled targets so that people here can express their opinion on the subject.
That way I wont be trying to change rules based my beliefs alone.

I wasnt aware of this problem untill I received a letter from a marker on the subject of rules.
This is a good forum for ideas and opinions and I intend to use it for the benefit of all.

Regards
Ken L

[Rowdy]

Hey Ken L

Hows a marker to know someone has shot the wrong target!

If you cant remember where your last shot went you could start using a plot sheet, not sure what you mean by shooter and scorer confusion. Are you confused as to whether you fired the shot or not? If the scorer is doing his job properly he'll know you didnt fire a shot and tell you to "carry on". If his not doing his job then you as the shooter should make sure he is. Dont see the big deal in targets being pulled when they shouldnt have, it shouldnt happen but does and always will, an error on the markers part, an inconvenience for the shooter.

Common-sense should prevail on this one. What would be your idea on a rule for this?

[Woody_rod]

Ken,
Rule 5.3.10 clearly says that the marker will on no account pull the target unless he is satisfied that a shot has hit the target, unless requested to do so by the Butts Officer.
So, what you describe is marker error probably brought about because the markers have not received the proper instructions.
Just the same, there is no procedure written for return of the target should the marker make a mistake. Rule 5.3.11 outlines the procedure a marker must follow on realizing he has made a mistake.
Barry

Barry, you are dead right. Trainees (in this case, markers) are like a computer, if you input rubbish, they will output rubbish. Everyone should make sure their new (and even more experienced) markers know exactly what is expected, what to do and when. Make sure the person training them actually KNOWS what the rules are... "I've been marking targets for years, I know how to do it..." doesn't mean they know.

It is pretty simple as stated: if you are not sure your target has been shot on, just wait for the RO or whomever to ask for it to be examined. Being tall, I keep my hand on the frame at all times, so I can get a better idea if my target has been shot on - when I am marking.

Ken, this happens every time I visit a range, whether at a local range, or the Queens. Maybe it happens more than you noticed!

[Ken L]

Hey Ken L

Hows a marker to know someone has shot the wrong target!

What would be your idea on a rule for this?

Obviously the marker can not tell a crossfired shot from a legitimate shot as a shot is a shot and should mark the shot as it is found.
The problem occurs when there is no shot found as the marker has pulled the target with no shot on the target and the competitor disclaims firing a shot. There are reasons why the marker could pull a target believing a shot has been fired as I stated before. The RO will intervene once he has been told of the incident. The issue is what is the standardised method of restoring the target without the possibility of disadvantaging the conpetitor any further.

There seems to be 3 alternatives
(1) return the target clean
(2) Return the target with the previous shot spotted and no value disk
(3) Return the target with the previous shot spotted with a value disk
I am not at the moment stating any preference. I am using this forum for what it is good at in canvasing opinions, so the right decision can be made and seen to be made in the best interests of F Class shooters.
Maybe someone will come up with a better idea and if I dont ask then it will be lost and the wrong decission could be made.

Regards
Ken L

[Rowdy]

Hey Ken L

Rule 4.5.1.5 for Marking

"the markers shall not remove the spotter from the previous shot hole until the curent hole is located. Once located then the new shot hole may be spotted and the previous shot hole patched out. If a new shot hole can not be located then the Butts Officer is to check the target and confirm the value of the current shot"

This would mean Option 3, return the target with the previous shot spotted with a value disc.

[Rowdy]

Hey ken L

Just re-reading my previous post I dont think I quite got that right.

If a marker pulls the target by mistake and he is unaware of it, the target should be returned unspotted and signalled a miss. The shooter and scorers will be aware of the error and disregard what just went on.

If a marker pulls the target by mistake and then realises his error I think it appropriate the target be returned with the previous spotter and value disc. Once again the shooter and scorer will be aware of the marker error.

You are right though the SSR's don't cover an adequate procedure

If you were going to introduce a rule something along the lines of Option 1 would be safest. I still think it boils down to just basic common-sense and honesty on everyone's part.