Forget I ever said it Rod, it isn't worth the effort and I apologise if I have upset you.
John, I don't know what happened up there but it sounded like it was how it should be done. I just remember being appalled listening to one sector advocating voluntarily giving up semi autos(especially as I had just bought a brand new Beretta semi auto shotgun for clays) so they would leave the rest alone. I think all associations work a bit better together nowadays and realise what is at stake.
Bob Katter is good but I think he loses a portion of the population with the self defence issue, my wife has a license but he puts her off at times. He is one of the best we have at the moment and I am very close to moving just so I can vote for him(well perhaps not but you know what I mean)
Alan, I do feel the NRA needs to be come more visible in the community, whether this is being hampered by the media I just don't know. The SSAA actually have a stall at Agfest down here (biggest event in little Australia) each year and they push the middle of the road line on purpose.
Yes, a steady constant solid push over a long period always gets you further than a great huge shove and heaps of grunting for a few seconds. This is how we should treat the firearms issue(Just my humble opinion).
Anyway I have been at work for nearly 24 hours now so am going to crash for a while as I am starting to mis-spell.
Tim
Maybe if I stay awake a bit longer I can watch kochZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Bad press on Sunrise program
Moderator: Mod
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Woody_rod
- Posts: 862
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- Location: Woodanilling WA
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I didn't mean to be taken the way you guys are taking me, but won't apologise for making an effort to correct something that was clearly wrong (the original intention of this thread - vis, the Kochie anti-gun story).
Ask the NRA USA if the softly approach works in the long run, I already know what the answer will be.
We are half way between the UK and the USA it seems with firearms ownership, if we do the low profile thing, we will be like the UK soon enough.
You guys choose your methods, I will choose mine. It is not a matter of winning or losing, as long as we get the outcome we are hoping for that matters.
Ask the NRA USA if the softly approach works in the long run, I already know what the answer will be.
We are half way between the UK and the USA it seems with firearms ownership, if we do the low profile thing, we will be like the UK soon enough.
You guys choose your methods, I will choose mine. It is not a matter of winning or losing, as long as we get the outcome we are hoping for that matters.
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timothi3197
- Posts: 191
- Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:46 pm
- Location: Australia
Rod,
Try and see where I am coming from, my comments were not neccesarily about you or your intentions but the way they are being delivered:
Some on the internet - and in real life - take rather radical views on firearms, race and religion. I never want to be associated with that sort of crap but that is unfortunately where a lot of firearm owners get lumped by default- even if that is not what you are like(I don't know you apart from what I have read here and I have no wish to). My point earlier was that any comments that even hint towards those views can do us damage as a group. We have to be so careful and I wince each time I see/read /hear a self appointed spokesman spouting his views and unintentionally destroying much of the good work that is done in the community daily by ordinary people(farmers, hunters, Target shooters etc). It is often a case of one step forward and two back and it is very frustrating.
Surely If the NRA in America could get rid of the extremist 5% of their organisation that wreck the good work of the rest then the USA would be a better place for firearms owners.
I appreciate your reasons for addressing Kochie and I was merely advocating caution in the way you did it. I wince when I see/hear read someone who has commented with the best intentions and motives being torn to pieces by journalists in full view of the public, it undoes so much long term groundwork.
Just my humble opinion.
Edit: if not as a poorly worded insult then just how should I take "hiding behind a lack of courage" Rod-Woody?
Try and see where I am coming from, my comments were not neccesarily about you or your intentions but the way they are being delivered:
Some on the internet - and in real life - take rather radical views on firearms, race and religion. I never want to be associated with that sort of crap but that is unfortunately where a lot of firearm owners get lumped by default- even if that is not what you are like(I don't know you apart from what I have read here and I have no wish to). My point earlier was that any comments that even hint towards those views can do us damage as a group. We have to be so careful and I wince each time I see/read /hear a self appointed spokesman spouting his views and unintentionally destroying much of the good work that is done in the community daily by ordinary people(farmers, hunters, Target shooters etc). It is often a case of one step forward and two back and it is very frustrating.
Surely If the NRA in America could get rid of the extremist 5% of their organisation that wreck the good work of the rest then the USA would be a better place for firearms owners.
I appreciate your reasons for addressing Kochie and I was merely advocating caution in the way you did it. I wince when I see/hear read someone who has commented with the best intentions and motives being torn to pieces by journalists in full view of the public, it undoes so much long term groundwork.
Just my humble opinion.
Edit: if not as a poorly worded insult then just how should I take "hiding behind a lack of courage" Rod-Woody?
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Woody_rod
- Posts: 862
- Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 9:00 pm
- Location: Woodanilling WA
- Contact:
Tim,
I do see your view, and appreciate the now more appropriate tone. I don't see myself as a spokeman, but I get your point about the way things are viewed by the uneducated majority - the people kochie talks to.
Will people remember conversations like this in the future when all our firearms are removed from us? I doubt it. The time is now to make some effort to retain some rights as legitimate firearms owners, not the 11th hour when it is too late, and the laws are being passed into the upper house....
My proposal of lack of courage is a general statement, and should not have been directed (not intentionally) at any individual. It is however, an accurate assessment of how things work these days - maybe it is complacency, whatever it is in society that allows things to occur with nothing more than a sideways glance these days.
I have had a fair bit to do with large workforces, and at the coalface. I use this experience to get an understanding of why people do or don't do things. In my area of safety and health, ulitmately, the only thing that get s your any real outcome is definitive action to make people do what they already know they must. The point is, in my experience, in areas where there are serious concequences, softly approaches just don't work.
In Australia we are hamstrung by not having an organisation like the NRA. I mean with their intent, not their overall reason for existing, which is not unlike the NRAA, or the SSAA here. The major difference is the overarching laws (amendments of their constitution) they have, where we don't. There is nothing to be gained by us wanting such freedoms, as we never had them in the first place.
What we need is our organisations like the NRAA and SSAA to start spending money on campaigns to get back some ground on the shooting sports. This needs to be aimed at the general public, not the shooting public, which is where they spend their money now. Is like Jesus spending all his time talking to the converted, and not speaking to the masses with the same mesage...no growth potential in that is there??
We have had for some time, major issues in WA (not sure about other states) with organisations like the SSAA. Not the membership, which are good people, involved in safe and meaningful sports. As long as there are self serving people, that are ill-equipped to provide the level of support we need as shooters, we are in trouble. There are other groups now trying to make ground with the Police minister and gov in general, but this is a long story, not helped by the previous years of neglect in this area by the organisations in place to do this.
The NRAA is interesting, as it really is an apolitical, center aligned organisation, and I for one, hope it stays that way. The target rifle movement has a much longer history in Australia (this is my fav story for the masses) than cricket or aussie rules - this is not to say it is superior, just been around longer, and as in my kochie letter, is inextricably linked with our diggers.
People may say that there is a lot of work going on the background with the governments, but I know this to be a fantasy in WA at least. It is simply a cluster **** whatever way you look at it. It makes me wince (tims term borrowed) every time I hear someone say that people are wroking to get things happening in the background. it simply is not happening to the degree it needs to.
In WA, and probably the rest of Australia, we are at crossroads of sorts from my viewpoint. One direction leads to the UK scenario - almost complete illegality of firearms, another leads to moderation of overly harsh restrictions, another to the same road we are on now. The direction we take as a shooting population is up to us, not the politicians. If we work on the public, get the positive thoughts going (at every single opportunity), and not wait for our so called representatives to speak for us.
I do see your view, and appreciate the now more appropriate tone. I don't see myself as a spokeman, but I get your point about the way things are viewed by the uneducated majority - the people kochie talks to.
Will people remember conversations like this in the future when all our firearms are removed from us? I doubt it. The time is now to make some effort to retain some rights as legitimate firearms owners, not the 11th hour when it is too late, and the laws are being passed into the upper house....
My proposal of lack of courage is a general statement, and should not have been directed (not intentionally) at any individual. It is however, an accurate assessment of how things work these days - maybe it is complacency, whatever it is in society that allows things to occur with nothing more than a sideways glance these days.
I have had a fair bit to do with large workforces, and at the coalface. I use this experience to get an understanding of why people do or don't do things. In my area of safety and health, ulitmately, the only thing that get s your any real outcome is definitive action to make people do what they already know they must. The point is, in my experience, in areas where there are serious concequences, softly approaches just don't work.
In Australia we are hamstrung by not having an organisation like the NRA. I mean with their intent, not their overall reason for existing, which is not unlike the NRAA, or the SSAA here. The major difference is the overarching laws (amendments of their constitution) they have, where we don't. There is nothing to be gained by us wanting such freedoms, as we never had them in the first place.
What we need is our organisations like the NRAA and SSAA to start spending money on campaigns to get back some ground on the shooting sports. This needs to be aimed at the general public, not the shooting public, which is where they spend their money now. Is like Jesus spending all his time talking to the converted, and not speaking to the masses with the same mesage...no growth potential in that is there??
We have had for some time, major issues in WA (not sure about other states) with organisations like the SSAA. Not the membership, which are good people, involved in safe and meaningful sports. As long as there are self serving people, that are ill-equipped to provide the level of support we need as shooters, we are in trouble. There are other groups now trying to make ground with the Police minister and gov in general, but this is a long story, not helped by the previous years of neglect in this area by the organisations in place to do this.
The NRAA is interesting, as it really is an apolitical, center aligned organisation, and I for one, hope it stays that way. The target rifle movement has a much longer history in Australia (this is my fav story for the masses) than cricket or aussie rules - this is not to say it is superior, just been around longer, and as in my kochie letter, is inextricably linked with our diggers.
People may say that there is a lot of work going on the background with the governments, but I know this to be a fantasy in WA at least. It is simply a cluster **** whatever way you look at it. It makes me wince (tims term borrowed) every time I hear someone say that people are wroking to get things happening in the background. it simply is not happening to the degree it needs to.
In WA, and probably the rest of Australia, we are at crossroads of sorts from my viewpoint. One direction leads to the UK scenario - almost complete illegality of firearms, another leads to moderation of overly harsh restrictions, another to the same road we are on now. The direction we take as a shooting population is up to us, not the politicians. If we work on the public, get the positive thoughts going (at every single opportunity), and not wait for our so called representatives to speak for us.
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timothi3197
- Posts: 191
- Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:46 pm
- Location: Australia
Good afternoon all,
Rod-there has been no change in my tone from the start of my comments to now, perhaps just your perception has changed?
I can see what you are saying but it has all been said before by many over and over, unless you are going to or have motivated an organisation to do something it is all hot air.
The SSAA, affilliates, Farmers and graziers groups and like organisations do a lot towards lobbying government and have achieved a lot for the general firearm owner- including Target shooters, to say nothing is being done is very small minded. The SSAA(I am just a member not involved with the executive or anything) is spending a fortune on encouraging junior shooters at the moment. Regardless of what they are doing perhaps it will never be enough?
Perhaps WA isn't very effective as you say but and how has the WARA approached the problem, I presume you are a member?
To look at it from purely my own perspective the Target organisations seem to stay very quiet, perhaps this is because there is no real goal to achieve as they haven't really lost firearms or the opportunity to shoot YET wheras the general firearm owning public has. Perhaps I have just been unfortunate enough to miss the media releases? I will gratefully stand corrected if someone can post me a link to a statement made about laws and regulations in the past two years by the NRAA.
I still don't mind being called pretty much anything you like as long as it isn't a gun toting redneck or along those lines, you know what I am talking about. There are other forums that foster this sort of image and they do have a lot of conviction that they are right. I just don't feel they portray the general firearm owner in an acceptable light at times. And they aren't a good way for the public to view firearm owners.
To mimic your own thoughts, no good preaching to the converted here or on another forum go and stir up an organisation with the meat behind it to do something - perhaps the one you are a member of?
Better yet get them to all talk with each other a bit and get rid of the parochialism that is so prevalent and constantly gives my the runs.
Tim
Rod-there has been no change in my tone from the start of my comments to now, perhaps just your perception has changed?
I can see what you are saying but it has all been said before by many over and over, unless you are going to or have motivated an organisation to do something it is all hot air.
The SSAA, affilliates, Farmers and graziers groups and like organisations do a lot towards lobbying government and have achieved a lot for the general firearm owner- including Target shooters, to say nothing is being done is very small minded. The SSAA(I am just a member not involved with the executive or anything) is spending a fortune on encouraging junior shooters at the moment. Regardless of what they are doing perhaps it will never be enough?
Perhaps WA isn't very effective as you say but and how has the WARA approached the problem, I presume you are a member?
To look at it from purely my own perspective the Target organisations seem to stay very quiet, perhaps this is because there is no real goal to achieve as they haven't really lost firearms or the opportunity to shoot YET wheras the general firearm owning public has. Perhaps I have just been unfortunate enough to miss the media releases? I will gratefully stand corrected if someone can post me a link to a statement made about laws and regulations in the past two years by the NRAA.
I still don't mind being called pretty much anything you like as long as it isn't a gun toting redneck or along those lines, you know what I am talking about. There are other forums that foster this sort of image and they do have a lot of conviction that they are right. I just don't feel they portray the general firearm owner in an acceptable light at times. And they aren't a good way for the public to view firearm owners.
To mimic your own thoughts, no good preaching to the converted here or on another forum go and stir up an organisation with the meat behind it to do something - perhaps the one you are a member of?
Better yet get them to all talk with each other a bit and get rid of the parochialism that is so prevalent and constantly gives my the runs.
Tim
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IanP
- Posts: 1193
- Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2008 11:30 am
- Location: Adelaide
When I read Woody's first post on this thread I thought maybe he had responded to Koche a little too strongly. I also felt his expressed frustration at Koche whose popularity has gone to his head and now he appears to think that his opinion is public opinion.
Koche had no idea of popular or majority opinion on gun ownership. Woody gave him his opinion via email and was better informed to do so! What I've read in this thread is that a strong opinion has been presented to us and we seem to be troubled by it.
I applaud Woody for bringing this to our attention, I dont necessarily agree with him completely but I certainly dont agree with Koche's rant going unanswered. The point raised about our associations and governing bodies having/needing an active political lobby are real issues that need addressing.
Strong argument and opinion is needed and is required to counter false claims and our associations must put members opinion forward to government. Tim is seeking the middle ground in this issue and rightly opposes extremist views from the right or left.
The thing is, we are all adults (or mostly) on this website reading this thread and we shouldn't be troubled by a concerned individuals opinion. It will always be, in a democracy, that the majority opinion will carry the motion. We must as members get our associations to put forward ideas to enable us to determine our future needs as shooters for gun ownership and use.
Koche had no idea of popular or majority opinion on gun ownership. Woody gave him his opinion via email and was better informed to do so! What I've read in this thread is that a strong opinion has been presented to us and we seem to be troubled by it.
I applaud Woody for bringing this to our attention, I dont necessarily agree with him completely but I certainly dont agree with Koche's rant going unanswered. The point raised about our associations and governing bodies having/needing an active political lobby are real issues that need addressing.
Strong argument and opinion is needed and is required to counter false claims and our associations must put members opinion forward to government. Tim is seeking the middle ground in this issue and rightly opposes extremist views from the right or left.
The thing is, we are all adults (or mostly) on this website reading this thread and we shouldn't be troubled by a concerned individuals opinion. It will always be, in a democracy, that the majority opinion will carry the motion. We must as members get our associations to put forward ideas to enable us to determine our future needs as shooters for gun ownership and use.
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Woody_rod
- Posts: 862
- Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 9:00 pm
- Location: Woodanilling WA
- Contact:
Tim and Ian,
It seems we have agreed somewhat. Now what? I agree with Tim, hot air doesn't get anything done.
WARA, as far as I know stays out of the spotlight in this sort of debate. They do however have some very powerful allies in the government, military, public leaders, etc. I have spoken to a couple and am very confident that their attitude towards firearms ownership won't be changed any time soon.
I believe that the newly refreshed F Class Standard class has been the best thing to happen to the conversion / new shooter influx. This is the sort of thing that is positive and shows how anyone - old, young, disabled, etc can participate on an equal basis in a very safe and well regulated sport.
This is why our company is spending on marketing within the F Class fields this and later years. More shooters, better prizes, more firearms ownership, more acceptance, better for the movement and better for suppliers like us.
It seems we have agreed somewhat. Now what? I agree with Tim, hot air doesn't get anything done.
WARA, as far as I know stays out of the spotlight in this sort of debate. They do however have some very powerful allies in the government, military, public leaders, etc. I have spoken to a couple and am very confident that their attitude towards firearms ownership won't be changed any time soon.
I believe that the newly refreshed F Class Standard class has been the best thing to happen to the conversion / new shooter influx. This is the sort of thing that is positive and shows how anyone - old, young, disabled, etc can participate on an equal basis in a very safe and well regulated sport.
This is why our company is spending on marketing within the F Class fields this and later years. More shooters, better prizes, more firearms ownership, more acceptance, better for the movement and better for suppliers like us.
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timothi3197
- Posts: 191
- Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:46 pm
- Location: Australia
Agreed that F class is a good area to concentrate on growing membership and consequentially a strong arm for the NRAA to use. Membership is the one area that something can be done and lets face it most people that try rifle, pistol or clays keep going with it.
My local SSAA(don't groan too much everyone) concentrates on new shooters enjoying themselves on the day as much as possible and actively promoting the sport and this has resulted in us seeing a growth out of all proportion to previous years. People have to know you are there.
I raised it last year and will do so again at our next Target rifle club general meeting that we apply for Adult education funding and run a few certified courses(it will be a lot of work but worth it) and grow numbers, however I would like to do this from a "F" class point of view as I feel that Target rifle is a bit too involved to "hook" a new shooter. I have checked and to to be able to run courses like this we will need help from Firearms services with discretionary short term permits, Firearms TAS has agreed in principle but a proper proposal has to be put forward by the executive. Once again I have to get the backing of club to go forward.
Ultimately though we are only providing the "ammo"(Member numbers and money) for the organisations we are part of to shoot, how they aim when they pull the trigger is up to the executive.
I might have next year off (I am 42 and haven't had long service yet)to get a few things done and spend some time on it but it will be next year. Too much to do and not enough time.
Tim
My local SSAA(don't groan too much everyone) concentrates on new shooters enjoying themselves on the day as much as possible and actively promoting the sport and this has resulted in us seeing a growth out of all proportion to previous years. People have to know you are there.
I raised it last year and will do so again at our next Target rifle club general meeting that we apply for Adult education funding and run a few certified courses(it will be a lot of work but worth it) and grow numbers, however I would like to do this from a "F" class point of view as I feel that Target rifle is a bit too involved to "hook" a new shooter. I have checked and to to be able to run courses like this we will need help from Firearms services with discretionary short term permits, Firearms TAS has agreed in principle but a proper proposal has to be put forward by the executive. Once again I have to get the backing of club to go forward.
Ultimately though we are only providing the "ammo"(Member numbers and money) for the organisations we are part of to shoot, how they aim when they pull the trigger is up to the executive.
I might have next year off (I am 42 and haven't had long service yet)to get a few things done and spend some time on it but it will be next year. Too much to do and not enough time.
Tim
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Woody_rod
- Posts: 862
- Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 9:00 pm
- Location: Woodanilling WA
- Contact:
Tim,
True enough on the time issue. Things for us are really starting to move now in action making, which is great. If my main problem over the next year is working out how to make more actions, I will be happy.
I believe F Class can be the ideal lead-in for new shooters also. The whole picture of TR is too involved, and there is no reason why we cant have a person start the first day with F Class - say a club 223 (a proper one), which our club has for this very reason.
Later, if the person wants to have a go, they at least have an idea about which end of a rifle is which, safety rules and all that.
We are sponsoring the WARA Queens prize this year as a closed handicap, and providing a new complete CG INCH rifle for the prize. This is either TR or F Class, as we will have one of each on display. All we need now is for other sponsors to get an act, and follow the example. The reason for the closed handicap, is that any person shooting can win the prize, based on how well they shoot during the comp - has nothing to do with gradings, top scores etc.
Anyway, my point is, we are trying to do our bit for the sport. Others need to step up and do the same.
True enough on the time issue. Things for us are really starting to move now in action making, which is great. If my main problem over the next year is working out how to make more actions, I will be happy.
I believe F Class can be the ideal lead-in for new shooters also. The whole picture of TR is too involved, and there is no reason why we cant have a person start the first day with F Class - say a club 223 (a proper one), which our club has for this very reason.
Later, if the person wants to have a go, they at least have an idea about which end of a rifle is which, safety rules and all that.
We are sponsoring the WARA Queens prize this year as a closed handicap, and providing a new complete CG INCH rifle for the prize. This is either TR or F Class, as we will have one of each on display. All we need now is for other sponsors to get an act, and follow the example. The reason for the closed handicap, is that any person shooting can win the prize, based on how well they shoot during the comp - has nothing to do with gradings, top scores etc.
Anyway, my point is, we are trying to do our bit for the sport. Others need to step up and do the same.
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CodeBasher
- Posts: 54
- Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 6:05 am
- Location: Camp Hill, Brisbane
- Contact:
I think Cochie has hopelessy mis read what Australians think.
Since taking up target shooting and subsequently chatted about the sport to friends and family, I'm surprised how totally positive the responses have been. I already have a few friends who have repeatedly asked to join me down at the range early next year for a shoot.
The most common reaction I've noticed is when people see educated professionals taking up the sport that it becomes immediately disarming and the interest shown is surprisingly great. Target rifles ooze of an interesting sophisticated sport rather than something people would expect a redneck to tote. This has made first impressions far more positive than I ever expected a few months ago.
Personally I think we need to represent ownership as a reflection of rural need and the sport we love rather than on the grounds of self defense. Gun control nuts have taken our rights away one at a time, one battle at a time. We also need to be collectively just as smart discerning which battle field we stand on at any time.
Rather than try to win the whole war in any argument, it is so much more effective to embarrass the PC brigade with their own stupidity as we then let them try to image Aussie Olympic heroes and world class sports people into evil mass murdering villains. The public's BS detectors aren't so broken they won't start to see the gun control lobby for what it is.
Since taking up target shooting and subsequently chatted about the sport to friends and family, I'm surprised how totally positive the responses have been. I already have a few friends who have repeatedly asked to join me down at the range early next year for a shoot.
The most common reaction I've noticed is when people see educated professionals taking up the sport that it becomes immediately disarming and the interest shown is surprisingly great. Target rifles ooze of an interesting sophisticated sport rather than something people would expect a redneck to tote. This has made first impressions far more positive than I ever expected a few months ago.
Personally I think we need to represent ownership as a reflection of rural need and the sport we love rather than on the grounds of self defense. Gun control nuts have taken our rights away one at a time, one battle at a time. We also need to be collectively just as smart discerning which battle field we stand on at any time.
Rather than try to win the whole war in any argument, it is so much more effective to embarrass the PC brigade with their own stupidity as we then let them try to image Aussie Olympic heroes and world class sports people into evil mass murdering villains. The public's BS detectors aren't so broken they won't start to see the gun control lobby for what it is.
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