VLD or Hybrids

[AlanF]

I have a Krieger 7mm 1 in 8.5 that is finally (after 1000 rounds) liking the hybrids. I'm assuming the leade has changed shape because I'm jamming the same 0.015" as before. A similar thing happened with 168VLDs and a Maddco. So if a particular projectile doesn't work when a barrel is new, it may work very well later on in the life of the barrel.

[Chopper]

Thats it , so try other projectiles for that chamber and leade , could save a re chamber ? and one 1000 rounds of barrel wear , its what it wants ? not what you want it to like , Chop

[RAVEN]

I’m no expert on these things Chop
I have experienced exactly that Alan

That some of my 284s really start to hammer after 1000 rounds
Also once re-chambered my first chambering I managed 3rd in the VRA in 2006
And had it re-chambered after that event this re-chambering Alan you and I were in 2 separate shoot offs for No.1 Badge unfortunately you won both
Next time you may not be so lucky

RB

[Chopper]

All said and done, its possible to win a Queens with a rifle that is a bit up and down , Just read the wind, its a BLOODY LOT wider than elevation , sometimes about twenty foot, but we dont talk about that ? Chop

[Frank Green]

It was always my understanding that the VLD's were supposedly harder to tune/get to shoot accurately because of the Secant design and that the hybrids were a cross of a Tangent/Secant type bullet. The link below can explain it better than I can and use less space for typing for now.

w.accurateshooter.com/ballistics/tangent-vs-secant-vs-hybrid-ogive-bullets/

The hybrids are suppose to be easier to tune/get to shoot well then the VLD type bullet. Sierra type bullets are more of a Tangent ogive and I would say more forgiving to get to shoot well but again I feel each barrel, type of chamber specs. etc....you won't know unless you shoot a variety of bullets thru them and see what it likes.

No barrel maker can make a barrel and guarantee it to shoot this or that ammo or this or that bullet etc.....I do feel the cut rifled barrels are more forgiving/less temperamental to the load/bullet you want to use though. This is because of less stress/no stress induced into the barrel during the rifling operation. Twist are very uniform and consistent vs. a button barrel and also bore and groove sizes over the length of the barrel can be more uniform.

I shoot the 180 VLD's in my F-Class gun and my older tactical style rifle which is in .280AI. I typically when I load for the rifle the first time will start my bullets .010"-.015" off the lands. If the gun shoots great I leave it. I load my guns for reliability as well as accuracy. Starting out as a hi power shooter across the course I don't like my bullets being jammed into the rifling. If the line is called to be made safe and you have to clear the gun.....I've seen to many guns with the bullet being stuck in the bore when the round was extracted.

My F-Class gun is shooting in the 3rd minute range and from the very first rounds down the barrel. Lets put it this way the gun shoots consistently better than what I can hold!

A customer and shooting buddy and I got on this discussion several years ago. He didn't believe me about the bullet jump thing. So he took his Palma rifle to Lodi and shot it off the bench. He took his ammo with the bullets seated long like usual (+.020" jam). The bullets if I recall correctly where 155 Berger VLD's. He took a hand press along with a micrometer seating die set up. He fired 10-20 rounds at a time and would seat each batch being fired .005" deeper into the case. In his case with the bullets being jammed .020" into the lands the gun shot a .7moa vertical at a 1K yards. When he got to a seating depth of .020" off the lands the vertical shrunk to .3 moa for vertical. He seated bullets as much as .040" off the lands but in his case the .020" off the lands the rifle shot the best.

Some barrels you will find will shoot like a million bucks right off the bat and what has been noted earlier in this thread some barrels shoot better as they get some rounds on them. This is true. A good rule of thumb is some barrels between 100-200 rounds you will see the biggest improvement as to how they shoot. Some barrels up to a 1000 rounds can shoot better and better (usually non magnum type rounds like .308win. etc...) then the barrel will plateau for a long period of time before the accuracy will start to fall off etc....

I know some of the ammunition manufacturers that we make test barrels for will not use a barrel weather for pressure or accuracy testing for data until they have at least 100 rounds on it. They want to make sure the barrel has settled down and is repeating before they use it for data. They will still record the data when the barrel is new but sometimes will not use it for actual ammunition testing/production until it has 100 rounds on it.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

[Chopper]

Nice to see you jump on board Frank , A barrel maker is a tough job ,Im sure, so many powders , so many projectiles , primers , tangent , secant , hybrid , tuners, bedding , can you make a wind cutting barrel ? Chop

[Frank Green]

Nice to see you jump on board Frank , A barrel maker is a tough job ,Im sure, so many powders , so many projectiles , primers , tangent , secant , hybrid , tuners, bedding , can you make a wind cutting barrel ? Chop

LOL! That's one thing we cannot control is the guys ability to call the wind but it's funny you say that/make the comment!

I've had benchrest shooters tell me that these certain/special barrels we made them a few years back.....I was at a match and asked them if they were shooting the special standard 5 groove barrels with narrower lands vs. the standard 4 grooves we normally make. They told me no! I asked why? They said they shot great accuracy wise but then they told me they didn't shoot in the wind! The guys that told me this we get a long great and can kid/goof around with. I told them that was BULLS!$%.

Well when we made that run of barrels I randomly pulled one from the run and kept it for my rifle build. We fast forward a few months and my gun is built and we are at the Supershoot. I let one of the two guys shoot my rifle with me on a practice day etc...and the other guy watched us shoot. They told me over and over again how great I was shooting and how great the rifle was. I asked the one guy what he thought of the wind conditions etc...he said yep tricky, letting off, picking up etc....then I proceeded to tell them that my barrel was one of the ones they said didn't shoot in the wind! You could've heard a pin drop in the dirt!

Later, Frank

[pjifl]

Perhaps we should be collecting parallel information on the lead angle of reamers used and lead geometry as it erodes.

What is really the best entry angle ? Is it the same for Hybrids and VLD's

Is the best entry angle for short term accuracy the same as for retention of a nice entry after many shots ?

I have noticed that some barrels seem to erode leaving a rough lead but others may erode more but the entry is a longer and cleaner taper and these still shoot well.

I am shooting VLD's just touching at the moment. Never tried Hybrids. Life is complicated enough as it is getting one combination to shoot well and chopping and changing for small gains seems risky.

Peter Smith.

[williada]

Peter, I did a few experiments changing leed angle from 1/2, 3/4, 1.25 & 1.5 in .30 calibre. I can say the 1/2 degree still shoots after a couple of thousand rounds and probably taken on the profile of the ogive. With the steeper leed angle there is a lot more resistance and noticeable recoil, therefore muzzle jump, so I assume it is a hotter burn and can lead to more gas erosion. The Dan Lilja site has an article on the correct leed angle. The leed angle will adopt the shape of the projectile over time. I suppose if you go changing bullets with different ogives you will interfere with the barrel leed profile.

You are right on the money. This area needs more development.

[AlanF]

Peter, I did a few experiments changing leed angle from 1/2, 3/4, 1.15 & 1.5 in .30 calibre. I can say the 1/2 degree still shoots after a couple of thousand rounds and probably taken on the profile of the ogive. With the steeper leed angle there is a lot more resistance and noticeable recoil, therefore muzzle jump, so I assume it is a hotter burn and can lead to more gas erosion. The Dan Lilja site has an article on the correct leed angle. The leed angle will adopt the shape of the projectile over time. I suppose if you go changing bullets with different ogives you will interfere with the barrel leed profile.

You are right on the money. This area needs more development.

While this discussion is in its infancy, let's decide on the correct spelling, is it "lead", "leade" or "leed"? I use "leade" because it's listed in Wikipedia, but that is not set in concrete. Any comments on the other spellings?

[johnk]

While this discussion is in its infancy, let's decide on the correct spelling, is it "lead", "leade" or "leed"? I use "leade" because it's listed in Wikipedia, but that is not set in concrete. Any comments on the other spellings?

Let's argue about it, use sarcasm & get personal. That's how it's done on other forums (fora?).

[williada]

Alan,
Go to the reference pages of the U.K. Historic Arms Resource Centre. Link provided: http://www.rifleman.org.uk/War_Office_P ... _Rifle.htm
Scroll down to the rifling ...
I believe anyone can change the definitions in Wikipedia. I used the original spelling. David.

[macguru]

Does it come from lead, the metal , as in the part of the rifling most likely to get fouled by lead as an unjacketed projectile is spun up ?

or is it 'lead' as in "you can lead a horse to water etc" because it leads to the rest of the barrel .... (ie the rifled part)
i will bet its actually the first one as in lead, Pb, the metal......
although if wiki is right that leade is That portion of a firearm's barrel immediately in front of the chamber where the bullet travels prior to contacting the rifling.

then its the second of course....

just a thought
andrew