The death of a good barrel from Bartlein point of view

[jasmay]

Using polish with a bronze brush is the only way to remove carbon build up in the corner of the lands and grooves. Using a jag and cloth only ever polishes the top of the lands and at best the centre of the grooves. I clean numerous barrels and when needed use polish on a bronze brush (Kg 2 or JB- the Kg is easier to clean off the brush) and inspect all the time with a borescope. I have yet to evidence any damage to any barrel with this method. For all those that swear by a jag and cloth keep using it- every barrel I have ever inspected that owners use a jag in shows the same damage. All are damaged at the crown where people unwrap the cloth after it exits the muzzle and then drag the rod and jag back through the barrel. Ever wondered what the donk, donk , donk noise is as the jag goes back into the barrel. Yep it is the sound of damage to the bottom of the nice sharp edge of the crown. Don't knock the use of a bronze brush, even if it is returned back through the muzzle it does far less damage than a jag as it self centres in the bore as it re enters the muzzle.
Regards Malcolm.

Malcom, what's your method for polishing? Or do you not polish?

Agree on the crown damage, but a couple of well placed fingers solves that. Also, when I am cleaning/polishing the jag never entirely leaves the muzzle, I am carful to mark my rods so I don't go all the way through. Also, if you have well matched Roland jag it reduces this issue.

[Frank Green]

As DaveMc pointed out in I believe his last post and again I don't feel it happened during rifling. He pointed out as I did the gouges start on the sides of the lands and go up and over (or thru) and onto the other side of the lands and not parallel with the rifling/twist.

From what I've seen over the years and it's regardless with the style of rifling/number of grooves....if there is a hard spot in the steel or something wrong with the tool to cut the grooves during the rifling process if that gouge starts on the sides of the lands it will tear/rip chunks out of the sides of the lands. It won't touch the tops of the lands.

If something is wrong with the steel or again the cutting tool on the top of the tool it will take chunks or leave what we call skidders in the grooves.

The rifling head rides/glides over the tops of the lands (the bore) during the rifling process. The rifling head never touches the sides of the lands or the grooves of the barrel. So it's nothing from the rifling head itself as again the head never touches the sides of the lands.

And what throws me is the tool and rifling head are turning with the twist of the barrel and the gouge/scratch marks don't have the same twist/go parallel with the lands.

We did Rc test the steel of the barrel that Tony sent back to us. It's 30rc. I faced the cut end of the piece so it was nice and smooth and we did the Rc test in a couple of different spots. One near the bore and another approx. 1/2 way between the middle and the outside. Some steels react differently to heat treat etc...and it's possible as you get closer to the center the Rc can vary in hardness but the cut off piece was nice and consistent. So I'm going to say nothing that can tell us anything here or to worry about.

If I read Tony's comment correctly.....the barrel started out shooting great and there was no sign of the marks early in the shooting of the barrel. Sounds like at one match he should've won it and that's when something started to show up as having problems. If this is the case and I understand the comments correctly something caused it/happened from the first rounds fired to approx. the 700 round mark but the question that we are all trying to figure out is what?

I got a hold of our one customer (gunsmith is Moon) that wrecked a barrel with the stainless tumbling pins yesterday. Moon still has the take off/damaged barrel and is sending it to me so I can look at it.

Will keep you all posted!

Thanks for all the comments and insights. It's appreciated from everyone!

Later, Frank

[Malcolm Hill]

jasmay
The bronze brush with the Kg 2 or JB bore paste polishes very well. Once worked up and down the barrel with a firm bronze brush I then use a worn bronze brush wrapped in a soft paper towel(I use John Deere hand towel) to remove the polish and it leaves a mirror finish after a couple applications. Doing it with the brushes gets even right into the corners of the lands and grooves clean of carbon which doesn't happen if you use a jag. This method will also get out the more stubborn carbon from the throat area so it doesn't get a chance to harden and build up to a point where it is extremely difficult to remove. Like someone has already mentioned on here there is no product or substance that I know of that will dissolve the hard and ceramic like carbon that can develop if let go for too long. The only way to remove it is hard work with an abrasive. Some barrels I have seen have been throw away items due to hard carbon build up and plugging and filling them with all sorts of carbon cleaners and other substances won't remove it. It is far better to not let it build up in the first place and using bronze brushes is good insurance against that. Good copper solvents easily get rid of the copper but giving a polish with a bronze brush to remove carbon will also take it out.
Regards Malcolm.

[Chopper]

Glad my my names not Frank , But great effort on the service, I will have a barrel from you , aussie.rflestocks@bigpond.com , Chop

[Chopper]

I am one eyed , but Montana solvents have been good to me , Oil based ammonia , Sorry Frank , but it works for me, Chop

[jasmay]

jasmay
The bronze brush with the Kg 2 or JB bore paste polishes very well. Once worked up and down the barrel with a firm bronze brush I then use a worn bronze brush wrapped in a soft paper towel(I use John Deere hand towel) to remove the polish and it leaves a mirror finish after a couple applications. Doing it with the brushes gets even right into the corners of the lands and grooves clean of carbon which doesn't happen if you use a jag. This method will also get out the more stubborn carbon from the throat area so it doesn't get a chance to harden and build up to a point where it is extremely difficult to remove. Like someone has already mentioned on here there is no product or substance that I know of that will dissolve the hard and ceramic like carbon that can develop if let go for too long. The only way to remove it is hard work with an abrasive. Some barrels I have seen have been throw away items due to hard carbon build up and plugging and filling them with all sorts of carbon cleaners and other substances won't remove it. It is far better to not let it build up in the first place and using bronze brushes is good insurance against that. Good copper solvents easily get rid of the copper but giving a polish with a bronze brush to remove carbon will also take it out.
Regards Malcolm.

I agree that the brush is good to get down in the grooves and corners, but I have always had success using a tight patch on a jag also, just last week I did both my Barrels I will use in the nationals this way monitoring the process with a bore scope.

Again, I think it's one if those what works for you situations, just like cleaning everyone has their own methods.

Still none of this gets to the bottom of the cause.

[Frank Green]

I am one eyed , but Montana solvents have been good to me , Oil based ammonia , Sorry Frank , but it works for me, Chop

Chopper, Your killing me! LOL!

O.K. now being serious!

I tell everyone....just because I clean my barrels differently or the guy next to you cleans differently then you do doesn't mean your doing it better or worse etc....

If you have a cleaning procedure that you use and your not wrecking the barrel then I've got nothing to say!

You start wrecking stuff and I can pin it down to you doing it.....then I've got something to say.

I will bring up again one shooter over here using a cordless drill and trying to clean the carbon ring out of his chamber. He had a rod/wooden stick in the drill with sand paper or steel wool on the end of it. Once we figured out what he was doing I could've blown a gasket! We were being blamed for bad steel and the gunsmith was being blamed for using a dull reamer.

Later, Frank

[Chopper]

RRRRRR , A good , good , solvent will do it , Most of the time , at short firings , without flogging it out with a cleaning rod ? 20, 40, shots ? out of a good barrel ? You must have some pics of rod flogged barrels Frank to open up some eyes ?, got a couple here dead after 200, and 400 rounds , a short four inch re chamber will fix them I have a small degree in chemistry but know a good solvent is worth a hundred rubs , Chop

[saum2]

KG is finer than JB don’t know about losso

I never use KG polish on a brush except with a cleaning patch over it to make a tight slug

Tony could it have been hard carbon going down the bore under the bullet
Probably farfetched maybe that could have been the start and the extra polishing with abrasive on a brush over time exaggerated it.

Frank did mention not to use nickle plated brass for I guess that reason

I only use the KG2 occasionally 4 times a year maybe
A lot of barrels are worn out by over exuberant cleaning.

The lack of a boreguide will likely cause barrel wear with whatever you use as a solvent.


RB

I have to agree with this statement; (A lot of barrels are worn out by over exuberant cleaning), Tony sounds very fastidious with his barrel cleaning. All this talk of KG2, JB & Iosso, I rarely use the stuff, what's wrong with good old boiling water to heat the barrel then a good clean with Montana.
Back to basics often works and doesn't wreck to many barrels.
Geoff

[ecomeat]

Geoff,
I honestly don't believe that it could be hard carbon being pushed by a bullet that has done the damage. KG1 is an amazing carbon cleaner, and Mark Fairbairn put me on to it before this one was chambered. It looks like Windex....smells like Windex....but just works on carbon like nothing else that I have ever seen. There is simply no way that I had a carbon build up that could have flaked off and been jammed down the barrel by a projectile.
It was his bright idea, so Craig McGown is going to come and help me do a little test as soon as I get out of this damned hospital. We want to try to video a bronze brush being pushed down a canted land barrel section, and see how the bristles behave ( ie to see if Dave Macs suggestion re the bristles possibly getting dragged over the " flat" section on top of the canted lands is happening)

I have also got an old buggered 6mm Kreiger with canted lands that I could polish repeatedly with KG2 and see what the outcome is. The first 6" of it are absolutely toasted and firecrazed, but the muzzle end is basically in perfect shape, so might give a guide to what's possible with "over zealous" use of KG2.
I think I need a hug

[ecomeat]

As Frank pointed out, the grooves of the barrel in question are very highly polished? If you hold the barrel section up to let the sun reflect on it, it's a blinding glare all right ! It looks like liquid mercury, it's that shiney......but is that by itself such a bad thing ? An old cow cocky like me would have thought that a bore "polish" was actually meant to do that
I have also heard all these stories about barrels wrecked by cleaning, with bore PASTE at the top end of so many wrecked barrels......yet basically every bench rest shooter you talk to or read about, chooses to clean with JBs Paste all day every day.....and they all claim to get good barrel life ?

[Cameron Mc]

basically every bench rest shooter you talk to or read about, chooses to clean with JBs Paste all day every day.....and they all claim to get good barrel life ?

This thread could go forever Tony. I use JB paste a lot. With 7mm barrels after every 100 rounds or so. I only do the first 3-5" in front of the chamber though. I use the wrap around the jag trick with flanel. I keep stroking until the flanel comes out pure black. This tells me I am on the bare metal. My first ever 7mm Krieger has done 4000rds using this process and it is still very accurate. I am meticulous about getting all the paste out after the process. I use Butch's Bore Shine for this. I keep running patches through till they come out absolutely white.
I will be do this with the Bartlien when I get time to fit it.
Very interesting hearing all the different techniques used.

Cam

[johnk]

Must admit when I use JB (either old & Bore Bright), I use the original recommendation of one pass of an oiled patch on a one size smaller bronze brush first, followed by the paste. It seems to manage both the lands & grooves for me.

[AlanF]

For me, pretty much what Cam does, but Iosso.

[smlekid]

so could there have been some sort of problem with a projectile? I know it is clutching at straws some sort of foreign body in the bullet? what would happen if a forming die broke up during manufacture would or even could a piece of hardened steel become encased in the projectile? or is this not a possibility I don't know much about production of bullets
just throwing it out there