stuck cases

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copper
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stuck cases

#1 Postby copper » Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:40 am

Hi all
I put a new 6mm Dasher barrel,got a box of new BR cases, fire formed them and everything was normal. When I first used the cases as Dasher, they got easy in , but after the shot, alas, the cases were stuck in and I have to push them out with a rod!All of them. The head space is 1.225" ,now by my mistake , the body die went too far down to 1.217" instead of 1.224". Is this the problem? Perhaps some wax remained on the walls of the cases?? I never had any problem with the old barrel! I really need some help here.
Thanks
copper

DannyS
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Re: stuck cases

#2 Postby DannyS » Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:06 pm

Question, if you were getting stuck cases, why did you continue shooting them? And why were you allowed to continue shooting them? Stuck cases usually indicate a pressure problem.

Cheers
DannyS
You might as well be yourself, everyone else is already taken.

blowemup
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Re: stuck cases

#3 Postby blowemup » Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:34 pm

Hi Copper
what was your load ?
If the load is mild id say not over bumping your shoulders should fix the problem.
Other than that a Harrels D3 die might help.

copper
Posts: 23
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Re: stuck cases

#4 Postby copper » Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:46 pm

To DannyS
I wasn't shooting in a competition my friend, I just noticed the problem early and I went down at the stop butts.That's where I shot!!! The load was very mild, so pressure problem wasn't there.Thanks a lot for your remark!
copper

DannyS
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Re: stuck cases

#5 Postby DannyS » Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:22 pm

Competition or not, if cases have to be pushed out with a cleaning rod, then something is wrong and prudence would suggest finding out why before, as you say, having to push them all out. Just saying.
You might as well be yourself, everyone else is already taken.

Jason72
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Re: stuck cases

#6 Postby Jason72 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:49 pm

Hi Copper

Agree with blowemup, if that doesn't work try FL re-sizing with the shoulder set back slightly more, say 1.223" and see what the result is, could be a bad batch?
Can you let us know how you go so we all learn.

Hope this helps somewhat, rather try to help than pull you,down like some others do.

Cheers
Jason

copper
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Re: stuck cases

#7 Postby copper » Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:57 pm

Thanks Jason, I was on the same path, I'll have a go tomorrow and I'll let you guys know. Now , I still have to answer to DannyS.Dear Danny, I had two shots and I figured out I had a problem. Then I went down to the butts and I had two more shots! that was ALL mate. I don't really understand your way of helping out a problem! How can you establish a problem if you don't try a few things?. Please.

williada
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Re: stuck cases

#8 Postby williada » Sat Feb 15, 2020 2:01 am

Copper, this seems like you added to an head space issue by body sizing too far in the first instance.

It is very likely the head space with your initial loading may have allowed the case to stretch and bind at the base when fired as you thought. Cases should be prevented from being knocked forward by the firing pin in a fire-forming scenario. If they ignite, the rear of the case is thrust back too far on to the bolt face, stretching the rear of the case. It can lead to development of case separation at the base even though the necks look perfectly formed. In this situation it seems pressure is not the issue as you have indicated milder loads and you are only working with standard wall thickness of the same diameter neck in the parent case. However, I think Danny's comments ring caution for others who keep shooting in these circumstances and don't stop at two to confirm a problem.

There are several methods to prevent base stretching when fire-forming, but the easiest is to load long so that the bullet engages the lands to prevent the initial movement forward of the case before ignition which thrusts the base back with an appropriate load to prevent excessive stretching. Those that use cream of wheat and no bullet but use wax or dunny paper, make a false shoulder at the neck by only sizing a small portion of the neck which may have been expanded a tad so that the chambered case is secured end to end. A further benefit of loading into the lands is that the walls of the cases are expanded evenly, thus preventing the development of a thinner wall on the top of the case when the case rests on the bottom of the chamber as it is fired. This is a future cause of banana cases and run out problems. I combine both the false shoulder and a bullet loaded into the lands on improved cases.

Allow me to tease out some other issues where the diagnosis is different and diverging a bit.. This can apply to any fire-forming operation, even standard chambers where cases are run in. It is important to know the actual head space of the rifle. Sure we say it does not matter if the cases are fire-formed, but that assumes fire-forming is done correctly so when we go to reload, everything can be done precisely for rifle accuracy when sizing the shoulder for best fit. I personally full length size every time because I know my head space is right and matches my dies and I get long case life.

The normal procedure for many gunsmiths is to set a minimum chamber based on SAAMI or CIP specifications depending on the chambering. If calculations are used then there is an identifiable starting point. The minimum head space is the "Go Gauge" as a final measurement tool and it corresponds to die manufacture which is usually based on minimum head space. As a rule, the full length dies are made to minimum SAAMI head space specs; but new cases are made approximately .005" short of the SAAMI minimum head space specs for chambering tolerance of different rifles. This adds to the head space issue in fire-forming. The cases will fire-form to match chamber dimensions after about 3 firings. New brass is the go rather than fire-forming old cases from a different chambering. However, with improved cases where shoulders a blown forward the head space also contributes to a bigger head space gap before the case is formed. The combined effects although small are significant. So it is imperative to secure the case end to end in the chamber for the process of fire-forming.

Better gunsmiths generally allow for at least .002" crush when drawing the barrel up so when the job's done minimum SAAMI head space is achieved. It means they usually fit with a plus .002" gauge before tightening to approximately 120 lbs if not instructed otherwise. The “Go Gauge should only be used once the barrel and action are mated to check head space is correct. I am not in the camp of low tension.

Commercial dies are usually made to SAAMI minimum head space and so are the RCBS case gauges where the zero represents minimum head space. Fired cases are best sized back at the shoulder .001" to .002" to accommodate varying temperatures which alters the brass length on the day or in long shooting strings. For accuracy, this should be done after three and measured to determine the real head space of the chamber because we cannot assume it is correct as do case manufacturers who make cases undersize. The reloading die depth setting should then be based on actual head space of the rifle i.e. to bumping the case back .002" under measured head space.

If the real head space is shorter than minus .002", assuming you have fire-formed correctly and case stretching is not overdone; and you have NOT adjusted your die to accommodate that with a further bump back of .002", then after several firings the bolt cannot effectively resize a harder case to chamber it. That is work the die should be doing. It becomes harder to diagnose the cause if hard extraction if the cases are annealed. This is not a pressure issue as such. Annealing and camming up on a soft shoulder masks the harder base swelling for a short time until extraction is difficult. The resizing die should have contacted and reduced the base but it hasn't because it has not gone down far enough. Marks on the case reveal what end is the problem. The rush to expensive custom dies maybe unnecessary if the the head space is correct.

Primers and case swelling in the extractor groove are a better indicators of pressure signs. Reloading manuals provide safe starting points.
Too big a gap between the bolt nose and the barrel is an area I check. The gap should be between .005" to .008". If larger the case is unsupported at the rear it swells at the rear with repeated firings. Case life is reduced.
Last edited by williada on Sat Feb 15, 2020 6:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

AlanF
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Re: stuck cases

#9 Postby AlanF » Sat Feb 15, 2020 6:35 am

Its not just a rough chambering job is it? e.g. rough surface, or insufficient taper? Marks on the extracted brass may explain.

DannyS
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Re: stuck cases

#10 Postby DannyS » Sat Feb 15, 2020 6:54 am

Hi Copper, my apologies if my comments have offended you, however, in your first post you stated that you had to push them all out, I therefore had visions of quite a number of stuck cases being pushed out.
You then advised that there were 4 in total, two of which were at the Butts, in which case I believe you stopped at an appropriate time.

Had this information been provided initially, then I would have commented differently .

Williada has taken the time to respond in some detail and I trust that it will be of assistance to you.

Cheers
Danny
You might as well be yourself, everyone else is already taken.

Wal86
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Re: stuck cases

#11 Postby Wal86 » Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:23 am

Copper,

After you fireformed your brass, you have then ran them through a body die, which suggests to me that there was some degree of tightness in your bolt lift, which there shouldn't of been...

Im thinking that your chamber walls have been polished to death, which allows the brass to flow and not grab the chamber walls.. No matter how light you load, your cases will always be hard to extract..

Too check if this is the problem, size a case correctly load and rough the cases body walls up with sand paper. Fire the case, if case extracts thats the problem...

You will then need to take barrel back to your smith to alter the surface of your chamber..

Cheers Alan
Last edited by Wal86 on Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:33 pm, edited 5 times in total.

michaeljp65
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Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:50 pm

Re: stuck cases

#12 Postby michaeljp65 » Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:02 am

Are the cases actually stuck or the extractor claw not grabbing them? When you push them out with the cleaning rod do they come out easy or are they actually stuck?

KHGS
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Re: stuck cases

#13 Postby KHGS » Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:00 am

copper wrote:Hi all
I put a new 6mm Dasher barrel,got a box of new BR cases, fire formed them and everything was normal. When I first used the cases as Dasher, they got easy in , but after the shot, alas, the cases were stuck in and I have to push them out with a rod!All of them. The head space is 1.225" ,now by my mistake , the body die went too far down to 1.217" instead of 1.224". Is this the problem? Perhaps some wax remained on the walls of the cases?? I never had any problem with the old barrel! I really need some help here.
Thanks
copper

To be able to make an assessment of your problem I would need to know what your fireforming procedure is re case support in the chamber for the initial fireforming.
I am not a fan of using the bullet to hold and support the case against the bolt face, it can and does work in some situations, but is too unreliable to be considered totally effective in fireforming Ackley chambers and those chambers where the shoulder is to be moved forward i.e. Dasher ect.
The only effective way to give proper case forming support with Dasher and like chambers is to expand the necks up at least one caliber then neck back down to 6mm, thus forming a "false" shoulder. The location of this shoulder should be such to provide a tiny amount of crush to provide the case support required to fireform to correct headspace.
Your sized cases with the induced .007" headspace may be reclaimed by using heavy neck tension and long seating hard jacketed bullets in order to move the shoulder forward instead of the solid case head moving back which will cause thining of the case just in front of the solid head.
Williada has offered very sound advice in his post applicable to standard chambers. Ackley and Dasher style chambers are different in that they require some crush to provide proper cartridge support during fireforming, bullet support alone is not reliable enough in all cases.
Keith H.

copper
Posts: 23
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 11:28 am

Re: stuck cases

#14 Postby copper » Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:36 pm

I really appreciate all of you guys. Today I couldn't have a shot due to bad weather. I have made a few cases (head space , rough case wall, and those 4 cases which I had to puss out,with the same fire formed head spase). I hope to get some results this week and I'll let you know.Hopefully the headspace is the problem.Thanks to all of you.You'll be informed.
Cheers
copper

Wal86
Posts: 276
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2016 5:10 pm

Re: stuck cases

#15 Postby Wal86 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:31 am

Copper,

I cant see headspace being an issue what so ever, your making the (6br case) larger in capacity..

Your dies are obviously working, bumping your fired cases back too far doesnt explain tight brass, because your brass has room to move..

There is another possibility but im going to be reserved on that one....

The fired brass that got stuck was there any marks left on the case body and if so where exactly?

Photo would help also

Cheers Alan


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