223 80 gn Velocity

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tom1
Posts: 138
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:54 pm
Location: Western Australia

223 80 gn Velocity

#1 Postby tom1 » Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:31 pm

On Sunday I set up my Pro Chrono at our range to check the speed of my reloads for my 223.
Lapua cases , CCI Magnum 450 primers , 80 gn Nossler projectiles. 25 grains of 2208 loaded with a set of Gempro 250 scales
Chronograph results showed speeds of around 2810 fps , which I thought was slower than what I was expecting.
Second application I used a different batch of bullets, Lapua cases CCI BR4 Primers , 80gn ELD Match projectiles & 25 gn 2208
Chronograph results showed average of around 2835 fps, still slower than what I expected.
Barrel is a 28.5 inch Kreiger 1 in 8 twist & Krico action
When I got home I checked my powder charge from the Gempro with my Lyman Ohaus beam balance. 25 gn off the Gempro showed 24.8 gn on the beam balance.Pulled 3 leftover bullets and re weighed the charge on beam balance and all were 24.8gn , so gempro is consistent but light.
This rifle was used by my old man who was a fan of moly coating, it probably had at least 2000 moly coated rounds through it. I havent moly coated for the last 300 at least.
Questions:
Is this velocity too slow ? Primers arent flattened at this load.
I was hoping to use this rifle at this years WARA Queens but I am concerned projectiles will run out of legs at 800 & 900m
Do I need to be getting over 2900 fps to shoot the long ranges ?
Sorry for the essay but want to get this sorted and any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers Brad Probert

mike H
Posts: 597
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 5:34 pm
Location: JUNEE NSW

Re: 223 80 gn Velocity

#2 Postby mike H » Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:24 pm

If it was mine,I would change to 2206H powder and work up,keep using the Br-4 primers and use the chronograph to track velocities.

ozfarm
Posts: 67
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2005 7:25 pm
Location: western australia

Re: 223 80 gn Velocity

#3 Postby ozfarm » Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:32 pm

ditch the 08

running 24gn 2206 , berger 80.5gn Lapua or starline case , CCI
rem700 1-8 kreiger barrel

Brad Y
Posts: 2145
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 8:21 pm

Re: 223 80 gn Velocity

#4 Postby Brad Y » Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:09 pm

Brad, you want to be above 1300fps going through the target. But my testing with 223’s vs 308’s on our kongsbergs, showed greater accuracy errors at 900m than compared with a 308. Only one detail of each so not real scientific but that’s what it showed. If I were shooting the queens I would be giving myself the best possible percentages and that would be a 308. By the way I would be double checking with a lab radar chronograph or a magnetospeed chronograph. They are the only two I trust now, but one will affect your point of impact and groups, the other won’t and is my preferred option.

Cliff Austen
Posts: 144
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 11:18 am
Location: Sydney NSW Australia

Re: 223 80 gn Velocity

#5 Postby Cliff Austen » Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:52 pm

25 grains 2208. CCI 450 mag small rifle primers. 2850fps.
or 26.5 grains 2206H MOLYED projectiles CCI 450 primers. just over 3000 fps. NOTE PROJECTILE WERE MOLYED.
1 in 8 30" barrel
Cheers
Cliff

tom1
Posts: 138
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:54 pm
Location: Western Australia

Re: 223 80 gn Velocity

#6 Postby tom1 » Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:42 am

Thanks for the replies ,will do some more testing with loads.
2 common trends here, use 2206H powder and a 30 inch barrel .
Brad the reason I am leaning towards using my 223 instead of my 308 is that I tend to commit shootings cardinal sins. I flinch & close my eyes a lot more when using the 308... Bad habits that I have never been able to kick permanently, tends to occur less when I use the 223.
Once again thank you all for your advice.
Cheers Brad.
Last edited by tom1 on Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cheech
Posts: 271
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:10 pm

Re: 223 80 gn Velocity

#7 Postby cheech » Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:30 pm

Cliff Austen wrote:25 grains 2208. CCI 450 mag small rifle primers. 2850fps.
or 26.5 grains 2206H MOLYED projectiles CCI 450 primers. just over 3000 fps. NOTE PROJECTILE WERE MOLYED.
1 in 8 30" barrel
Cheers
Cliff



Wow Magnum primers to burn 25gns of powder got my attention, I’ve used normal standard primers to ignite 93gns no problems

tom1
Posts: 138
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:54 pm
Location: Western Australia

Re: 223 80 gn Velocity

#8 Postby tom1 » Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:56 pm

Cheech, the achilles heel of the 223. To get them to perform at 900m/1000 yards they have to be humming along,hence loads that push the envelope.
Shooters have two options, put up with the recoil of a 308 or accept that a 223 with milder loads wont perform in less than ideal conditions at the longest range.
Neither option is conducive to increasing membership .....
We could go off topic and ask again why another calibre has never been approved for TR, but that would be pointless.
Thanks again to all those who replied, I will test some loads this coming Sunday and post some results.
Cheers Brad

cheech
Posts: 271
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:10 pm

Re: 223 80 gn Velocity

#9 Postby cheech » Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:08 pm

tom1 wrote:Cheech, the achilles heel of the 223. To get them to perform at 900m/1000 yards they have to be humming along,hence loads that push the envelope.
Shooters have two options, put up with the recoil of a 308 or accept that a 223 with milder loads wont perform in less than ideal conditions at the longest range.
Neither option is conducive to increasing membership .....
We could go off topic and ask again why another calibre has never been approved for TR, but that would be pointless.
Thanks again to all those who replied, I will test some loads this coming Sunday and post some results.
Cheers Brad



Yes I remember when I shot standard 223 Fclass when I started out they would be super accurate up to 7-800 then it seemed just luck after that , then went to 308 and it felt like cheating
But the 223 was back before the 80.5 bergers were available with Sierra or Hornady and Nosler to choose from , I’m almost want to build another now with the knowledge I’ve gained , but it definitely taught us a lot about shooting in our beginning.
Best of luck with finding the right combo :D

Brad Y
Posts: 2145
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 8:21 pm

Re: 223 80 gn Velocity

#10 Postby Brad Y » Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:31 pm

Sometimes you don’t need magnum primers, but you want to be using the ones you get the most consistent ignition with in your rifle. You can’t just buy any old spark plug and put in a ferrari and expect it to run well.

Cliff Austen
Posts: 144
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 11:18 am
Location: Sydney NSW Australia

Re: 223 80 gn Velocity

#11 Postby Cliff Austen » Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:38 pm

A few years back Bill Parker won the NSW Champions of Champions with his 223.
I have shot my 223 out to 1200 yards at Ungarie in the NSW Long Range F Class Championships. The projectiles were "cracking through the targets loud and clear", according to the markers.
The first year the results weren't too flash but after that I held my own against the 308's.
Cliff

tom1
Posts: 138
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:54 pm
Location: Western Australia

Re: 223 80 gn Velocity

#12 Postby tom1 » Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:33 pm

That's encouraging Cliff. If it's set up right and loads are tested the 223 will hold its own at the longer ranges. My Dad shot a 49.5 with this rifle at a 1000 yards during a WARA Queens on manual targets. The closest he got to a possible at that distance, he was spewing about the 4 six shots on. He did score a couple at 900 yards with this 223.
Cheers Brad.

tom1
Posts: 138
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:54 pm
Location: Western Australia

Re: 223 80 gn Velocity

#13 Postby tom1 » Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:30 pm

Back from shooting today with some results from my Pro Chrono
1st Application 24.8gn 2208 BR-4 primers 80gn ELD Match Projectiles & clean barrel :
1st S 2775 low bull
2nd S 2831 high 4 at 11. oclock foolishly wound up half a line after first sighter
2820 2786 2796 2796 2792 2818 2796 2796 2826 2900 Last shot 4 @ 2 oclock AVERAGE 2811

2nd Application 25gn 2208 BR-4 primers 80gn ELD Match
2844 2857 2811 2853 2857 2831 2840 2822 2833 2864 AVERAGE 2841

Of note these Lapua shells are the old type that weigh 103gn about 8 - 10 gn heavier than my other Lapua Match brass
I was going to load these at 25.3 gn but they looked too full, as it was @ 25gn the powder was up to the bottom of the neck and it felt like a compressed load when seating projectiles. I've never had the press handle feel like this before so I wont be putting anymore than 25 gn in these shells. I have no idea how many times that these have been reloaded , they where my Dads before.
The chrono was left in the same position. I am not sure on the round count of this barrel , quite possible its over 3000 rounds.
In coming weeks I'll test velocity of my Omark 223 with a 28 inch Kreiger barrel & Winchester brass.
At the end of shooting today we tested another shooters 223 Omark with new Lapua brass Berger 80.5 gn 25 gn 2208 CCI magnum primers : 4 shot test 2940 2928 2944 2930 Ave 2935
Please feel free to add your opinion
Cheers Brad

pgcpty
Posts: 102
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:42 pm
Location: Sutherland Shire

Re: 223 80 gn Velocity

#14 Postby pgcpty » Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:20 am

Hi Tom1,

As I'm a 223Rem F Standard devotee and curious as to why your measured Muzzle velocities are far lower than Ive experienced at around 2813 fps with a high ES of 114 fps
Ranked MV
2786
2792
2796
2796
2796
2796
2818
2820
2826
2900
V MAX 2900
V MIN 2786
ES 114 (load not tuned ES should be 20 or less for long range performance)
V AVE 2813 (low, should be >2950 fps for 2208)

I suspect something else is not right.
Since previously moly coated bullets were used I'd purge the barrel of all traces of moly as follows
1. Disassemble rifle and poor a jug of boiling water via a funnel through the barrel.
2, Patch out til dry
3. Whilst still hot,with a bristle bush dipped in Sweats 7.62 Solvent stroke through the barrel 10-20 full strokes and leave 10 minutes to soak then patch out.
4. Then apply with a patch soaked Autosol Metal Polish wrapped around clean bristle brush stroke the bore 10-20 full strokes to remove moly and carbon residue from the bore. Patches will come out initially black progressing to clean

Moly can be a pain to remove and I've found CLR (Calcium, Limescale, Rust Remover) very effective in an ultrasonic bath to de-moly projectiles.
223R Nosler.jpg


Following I did 3 setups in QL for the 80 gr Nosler projectiles each for 2208, 2206H and 8208 for a 28.5" barrel adjusting powder charge for a near constant barrel time of 1.254ms.

In all cases the predicted MV is 2940 fps or greater.
CONCLUSION If after cleaning the barrel as described there is no change measured in ave MV's
1, try another chronograph
2. change to 2206H or BM8208 powder working up to the QL loads given
Its over 10year since I ceased using 2208 in my 223's graduating next to 2206H for good results and now to 8208 (cleaner/full burn) where I'm getting 2980 fps MV for 24.8gr in a 29.5 ins 7T Krieger barrel with the Berger 80.5gr Target (hBN plated), COL B2T 2.45" and my share of possibles!

I hope this helps

Peter
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Good judgement comes from experience, experience comes from bad judgement!

tom1
Posts: 138
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:54 pm
Location: Western Australia

Re: 223 80 gn Velocity

#15 Postby tom1 » Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:45 am

Hi Peter
thanks for your reply, I had a thought last night about the possibility of the long history of moly through this barrel could be a factor in the velocity I'm getting. When I clean it I still get a lot of black residue on patches.
The variation of velocity was a concern. Starting to think several factors at play here especially when we tested another members velocity that came up with the numbers I was after. His barrel hasnt done much work. Think Ill try new brass & 2206H .
Thanks Brad


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