Myths and Mysticism in Load Development

[DingoDeerHunter]

Tim, if the tuner’s benefit is “delaying movement” then it’s just a weight and nothing more isn’t it? This all the dials and settings are bunked, it’s just a a paper weight in the end of a barrel?

[Gyro]

Where's ya next F Class comp Dingoshooter ?

Mine is Belmont in October, trying not to come last !

Cheers Rob K

[Tim L]

Tim, if the tuner’s benefit is “delaying movement” then it’s just a weight and nothing more isn’t it? This all the dials and settings are bunked, it’s just a a paper weight in the end of a barrel?

Idk is the only way i can respond.
Don't get me wrong, i believe there's plenty of ineffective ideas about accuracy, I'm just not in a position to write tuners off just yet.
Lets say the simple weight might have an effect ( i believe it does) Twiddling them may simply fall into that psychological niche, but if it woks for those using them, who am I to disagree?
There's much said about data and distribution of shots, but all the discussion seems to revolve about group size rarther than the actual distribution. Lets say we don't shrink the group but we can bring more shots closer to the center. i.e. lift the peak of the distribution curve. Is that an accuracy improvement?

[jasmay]

One of the problems is, the people in the know, generally won’t espouse much on a forum like this, especially when they are ridiculed.

A lot has been said in this thread, and it’s clear to me that a lot don’t have a basic understanding of what they are actually adjusting when they move a tuner, little lone what’s going on in other elements of load development.

Those that choose to do the leg work and develop the relationships will gain a lot more knowledge than would ever be shared on an open forum, especially when a lot of effort goes into winning world titles, and successfully so as the record shows.

For the others….. what ever floats your boat.

[Gyro]

Totally Jase and they don’t have to share a thing. But man I have read what I suspect is just waffle about what’s happening with precision. I haven’t written off tuners either but I’m still waiting for what looks like proof that they help.
Keeps the game interesting BUT I think there’s so far been very little science applied here ?
Litz has had a crack at it and he came up with his own conclusions.
I have one sitting in my shed and I have weight to spare to put it on but I have never used one so I fear it would ‘bite’ me so I’m stayn away. I could put it on and never turn it after I was happy but unless I know how to turn it when the gun “goes off” there’s no point ?
As u say the top guys who pool and share the knowledge may get that edge ? I dunno !

[DingoDeerHunter]

Where's ya next F Class comp Dingoshooter ?

Mine is Belmont in October, trying not to come last !

Cheers Rob K

I might be there, vying with you in an effort not to come last

Enjoy!

[KHGS]

Totally Jase and they don’t have to share a thing. But man I have read what I suspect is just waffle about what’s happening with precision. I haven’t written off tuners either but I’m still waiting for what looks like proof that they help.
Keeps the game interesting BUT I think there’s so far been very little science applied here ?
Litz has had a crack at it and he came up with his own conclusions.
I have one sitting in my shed and I have weight to spare to put it on but I have never used one so I fear it would ‘bite’ me so I’m stayn away. I could put it on and never turn it after I was happy but unless I know how to turn it when the gun “goes off” there’s no point ?
As u say the top guys who pool and share the knowledge may get that edge ? I dunno !

One thing is for sure…..you won’t learn much about tuners with it sitting on a shelf in the shed!!! Use it learn it, that’s what the rest of us who use tuners have done. I will say it’s an interesting journey and it’s a journey that is not for everyone! Do they work? Yes they do, not based on science just good old hard work.
Keith H.

[DingoDeerHunter]

Applied Ballistics did testing of tuners with 800 round tests for each calibre against control tests on multiple calibres, doing 5 x 5 shot groups and then retesting promising settings and nodes and consulted the manufacturers about where to test.

What did they find? Nothing, all the initial tests that showed smaller groups all fell back into the same distribution as the control tests with no tuner.

But despite this “science”, somehow they do magically work. Somehow you can just do 3 or 5 groups in each setting and find the magic node. It’s a special kind of cognitive dissonance. It’s snake oil sold for $350. No one who was sold the pup really can face up to having been duped.

And people here are aggressively seeking to dox me for mentioning reality, for bursting their little
bubble.

It’s no “Litz had a crack and came to his own conclusions”, it’s Litz tested tuner’s rigorously with significant sample sizes and found the group sizes all within the same distribution of the rifles without a tuner. It’s the data not a “conclusion”, not the interpretation of the data but the data itself that shows no effect.

People are shilling for tuners here because they sell them and make money selling the snake oil. But hey can’t produce any independent testing showing their effect. It’s all “trust me bro”.

The Horady team did thousands of rounds of testing, found that powder nodes and seating nodes disappear with larger samples. But people contend they sell ammo so they’re lying. However they sell components for reloading so, in fact, it’s in their interest for people to burn rounds ladder testing 0.002gn powder charge differences and 1 thou seating changes. But hey, trust me bro, you’re just 0.001 grain or thou away from a 60.10 detail at a thousand yards at the Kings.

Too many new shooters are led down this rabbit hole of neck turning, tension, seating depth, optimal charge weighting, tuners etc. wasting time and money that would be better used lying behind the rifle and working on technique. Save your dough and practice instead.

[RDavies]

I’ve been trying to tell my main competitors for years not to bother with tuners, case prep and load development, but the ones who beat me just won’t listen. I suppose I’m just as gullible having just bought my 15th tuner and continuing to do every bit of case and bullet prep possible.

[jasmay]

I’ve been trying to tell my main competitors for years not to bother with tuners, case prep and load development, but the ones who beat me just won’t listen. I suppose I’m just as gullible having just bought my 15th tuner and continuing to do every bit of case and bullet prep possible.

Keep trying Rod....

[PeteFox]

What I see in this 'discussion' on tuners is a whole lot of chest beating along the lines of such and such is using a tuner and because he is a great shooter it must improve accuracy. Point proven

What I also see is an atttempt to disparage the test done by Litz and others without actually saying what is wrong with the data, the methodology or the result, other than it disagrees with common perception.

Litz has given more to the technical improvements in modern ammunition than any other individual I can think of, and at the time everyone was willing to accept his data and methodology whern Berger came out with the hybrid projectile.
Now Litz has used the same scientific principles to conclude that - any perceived improvement made by tuners is lost in the noise of large group sizes. And all that can be said against this is that Litz makes ammunition therefore his view must be tainted by commerce.

Cortina makes tuners and some here sell them and yet apparently their piousness is not dented by commerce at all.

Sure, lots of top shooters use tuners, but lots of mediocre shooters use tuners and I don't see the mediocre shooters moving to the top because of the tuners - the winners and also rans scene has stayed the same. This tells me that tuners have yet to be proven to work, and by pointing to just the top shooters as proof that they work is the number two mistake in statistics - spurious correlation.

If some luminary here can point out where Litz and Co are wrong ..... go ahead and do it......but you cant, can you.
Pete

[jasmay]

Interesting comments from Bryan Litz,

Bryan Litz
January 28, 2023 at 7:05 pm
I think the presence of a weight/mass on the end of a barrel, especially a light contour barrel, can possibly improve precision. However, we’ve seen no evidence that small movements of that mass matter.
-Bryan

So mass can possibly help precsion, but unconfirmed if small movements make a difference.

Bryan Litz
January 28, 2023 at 7:08 pm
Already planning on follow up testing! There are many claims, expectations, and ways that tuners are used. Our test was thorough, but narrow in scope. For example, our test wasn’t looking for positive compensation, which is something that would need to be tested at long range. To test for this, we’ll need to radar track all shots, and see if the measured BC and MV of each shot determine it’s vertical placement on target or if the tuner is able to produce some effect beyond the basic MV and BC of each shot.

-Bryan

More testing required.....

Bryan Litz
January 28, 2023 at 7:17 pm
I agree. As many things revolve around the harmonic theory of precision, there is little-to-no supporting evidence or measurements of said harmonics. What is the amplitude and frequency of the harmonics? What’s the relationship between barrel contour and mass/movement needed to traverse 1 cycle or phase of harmonic?
Everyone talks about finding nodes but the use of tuners and load development use sample sizes too small to actually resolve small differences in precision, weather caused by harmonics or other.

It’s probably a good idea (for precision) to attach a weight at the muzzle, but rather than making it adjustable and telling ourselves an unverified story about harmonics, just let it sit there and do what mass does best: resist movement!

My $0.02,
-Bryan

Again, mass could help, but moving might not.

Discounts small sample sizes, but doesn't consider, there are many who use months of practice sessions and competition results (100's sometimes thousands of shots), outside of initial rifle setup testing to continue improving a rifles performance. Digital Shooting Records have been a huge help in this endeavor with systems like Hexta.

One can call this stuff bunk and snake oil, others choose to do the leg work and understand how and why they work, results speak volumes, and it is indisputable that most getting high level results at the top end of the sport are using some form of tuning (Especially in rimfire)... Interesting that each F-Class grade winner at the recent Qld state champs was won by a rig with a tuner on it, 100 competitors and those with tuners came out on top.... but it's probably bunk or at best a fluke....

The important thing is that people enjoy their Journey in this sport, weather you want to try things that are cutting edge and developing or stick to traditional methods is really up to the individual, expanding one's knowledge through practical experience is invaluable from a learning perspective.

If you want to see if tuners work, put one on, I've been using them for 10years now, and it's no secret I am also now selling EC tuners through SEB Australia, but have only done so for about 6 months now, prior to that I was just drinking the snake oil, now I am apparently shilling it too

[AlanF]

I have used barrel weights, but never persevered with a tuner for this reason: Except for the first day of an event, I normally loaded on the range, and relied heavily on the principal that if it doesn't work, try another load, or more often, another barrel, and more of the same load if it does work. If you're loading everything before the event, then that is where a tuner would interest me. If you had a reasonable knowledge of how a particular barrel/tuner combination behaves, and your load is not performing as it was during testing at home, then you'd be able to tweak the tuner in a systematic way to get back into the node in only one or two tweaks. Its well known that tuner settings can be right one day and wrong the next, with atmospheric conditions suspected as the cause. Regardless of the cause, if a simple tweak or two fixes it, who cares?

[jasmay]

I have used barrel weights, but never persevered with a tuner for this reason: Except for the first day of an event, I normally loaded on the range, and relied heavily on the principal that if it doesn't work, try another load, or more often, another barrel, and more of the same load if it does work. If you're loading everything before the event, then that is where a tuner would interest me. If you had a reasonable knowledge of how a particular barrel/tuner combination behaves, and your load is not performing as it was during testing at home, then you'd be able to tweak the tuner in a systematic way to get back into the node in only one or two tweaks. Its well known that tuner settings can be right one day and wrong the next, with atmospheric conditions suspected as the cause. Regardless of the cause, if a simple tweak or two fixes it, who cares?

Another line of thinking I agree with.

Loads have been shown to go out of tune when weather changes, most shooters heading to large events are forced to load before, if you cannot change your load, having another method to tweak your tune is critical…

[Gyro]

I’m thinking this could all be a conspiracy and EC is I suspect well implicated here and is likely channeling funds from sales to help with Trumps legal prahblems !
Could be Ozzies involved too !