Dud Match Barrels - What Recourse?

[AlanF]

When you buy a match barrel, what are you entitled to expect? If a barrel doesn't perform for you, how bad does it have to be before you can reasonably say its a dud, and what sort of evidence should you need to provide to the dealer? Should there be any recourse at all, or should you just accept that you might be lucky or unlucky and take it on the chin - after all if you get a hummer you wouldn't go back and pay the dealer extra! Or alternatively, should barrel manufacturers and dealers build into their pricing a generous allowance for the return and replacement of duds?

I'd be interested to hear opinions on this. DON'T use this as an opportunity to bad mouth particular barrel brands or dealers - constructive discussion only please. If we can come up with some sort of concensus on a reasonable approach to this, we can put it to a few barrel manufacturers and dealers to see how they react. You never know - it could end up as a win-win situation for us and those manufacturers or dealers who are prepared to discuss it.

[actionclear]

I would start with an email to the barrel makers. Ask them where you stand. You never know, they may have had a bad batch.

I have had one barrel replaced, but this was a case of defective workmanship. They replaced it with a hand selected barrel, which I currently have on my rifle. One I am very happy with.

[johnk]

Alan,

I've only ever had one unsatisfactory barrel & the maker replaced it on the evidence that it was achieving substantially substandard velocities.

I would reckon though that in most instances you'd need to demonstrate that the condition was attributable to the barrel, rather than gunsmithing or loading issues, as well as your scope & accoutrements etc. I was about to toss a newish barrel away after I achieved absolutely the worst results ever earlier in the year at the match rifle nationals. A check suggested that the throat had burned out in under 500 rounds, but that turned out to being a "spontaneous" dag on the neck of my test case. In the end, after I'd torn out a few babies' throats & the like, I toddled back to the bench & ran the rest of my loads downrange at 100 yards.

Projectiles that until then had been grouping .4s & better were now hard pressed to hold 1.5" - they did the same when I swopped one of my older tubes back in & it shot fine with green box projectiles, which seemed to put that part of the blame where it should be. Ain't forgiven my own stupidity though.

If it's always been a crock, I'd go back to the supplier, but in most other cases, I'd be looking to prove all other possibilities first.

John

[M12LRPV]

Given the inability of most people to do any actual load development it would be difficult for most to claim a problem with a new barrel.

"Just put in the max and shoot it"

[IanP]

This is a difficult situation where the barrel is suspected of inaccuracy but in order to return it to the manufacturer you would need proof that it is the barrel at fault.

Lets assume some facts:

1. The chamber and crown the gunsmith has machined into the barrel is correct and appropriate for the projectiles and case you are using.

2. The load you have developed for the calibre is an established good and accurate load.

3. The barrel is clean and was run-in correctly.

If all of the above points have been done correctly then its right to suspect the barrel. Whats needed now to convince the barrel provider is physical evidence.

If possible borescope the barrel and inspect for problems associated with barrel manufacture. Rotate barrel in lathe and check for out of round (bent barrel).

If you can find a mechanical problem with the barrel caused thru manufacture then return it with the data showing it to be faulty. If nothing can be found mechanically wrong with the barrel then provide targets and ballistic data (SD, ES, Velocity, etc) for the manufacturer to view.

The onus is on the buyer to prove the barrel is faulty and a methodical approach is needed. If you can establish its not anything you have done to the barrel then you have a strong case to get another to replace it.

The thing is that there are some shooters who make mistakes themselves without realising it and lay the blame on an inaccurate barrel. I think if you can establish enough evidence to suggest its a faulty barrel then the barrel maker will replace it. If not, then read the warranty (if any) that came with the barrel and contact consumer affairs.

Difficult situation to win but if you purchase from a known reputable seller then they should (hopefully) look after their customer's best interest!

IanP

[Woody_rod]

I have seen problems with barrels that are almost always the load not being tuned properly. I find this annoying at best, as people are often too quick to blame their equipment.

On asking one guy and his "expert" helper about some alleged issue with a barrel, they said they used a known load and the barrel would not shoot better than 1 MOA. This was a total of about 20 rounds of testing......well, what can you say to that. The barrel not run in, and load testing nowhere near complete and they are blaming the gear already. I just shrug my shoulders and understand that it takes all kinds to make the world go around.

The expert tester had never owned a 223Rem before, so was providing advice with no idea what they were talking about. This does not help with a proper evidence based approach to getting rifles to shoot.

[johnk]

Alan,

Just a thought. Is the twist the one you ordered?

John

[BATattack]

A dud barrel is one that doesn’t perform to standard . . .the standard is determined by what you and other experienced people have achieved through testing in similar equipment to establish an accuracy baseline or CONTROL.

For me the first step would be to return the rifle to the gunsmith and go over all mechanical possibilities and discuss reloading/testing techniques. An inspection of the reloading dies may also be appropriate.

If no issue is found the next step would be to contact the manufacturer possibly by polite phone call then a follow up e mail containing:

Barrel twist, length, profile date purchased (so they can start tracing material batches, machinery re calibration etc)
Gunsmith
Run in procedure
Bullets used
Powder types and charges tried
Primers
Cases
Copies of targets

This will show that you have grounds and experience with which to base your claim. If they are unable to offer any further suggestions as to possible flaws in testing the barrel should be exchanged.

[RDavies]

I would say the dud barrel he is talking about would be for his current rifle which has had 2 dozen barrels in it already to get a base line about how HE and THE RIFLE can shoot. More than likely in a caliber he has shot and loaded 1000s of rounds with in competition. Is this right?
Probably a different situation to 90% of the complaints barrel makers get from gut shooters who couldnt hit the side of a barn if they were standing inside it.
In this situation I think the shooters should get some sort of goodwill settlement if the barrel couldnt reliably and consistantly stay below 1 moa at mid range, say 600yds. I know lots of competition shooters can realisticly shoot well below this out to long range, but try explaining to the barrel maker that the barrel will only shoot 1 moa at 600yds, most scrub shooters out there would love to do this.
I have only had 2 realy bad barrels. The first one was localy made and when I rang the maker, he just told me I couldnt shoot. This was a few weeks after shooting a few 100s with the last barrel I got from him. Because of his attitude, he is missing out on selling many more barrels to me.
The other barrel was from over seas. The barrel make replaced the barrel without even wanting to look at it, just on a recommendation from my gunsmith. I have a few more on order from them.

[BATattack]

I would say the dud barrel he is talking about would be for his current rifle which has had 2 dozen barrels in it already to get a base line about how HE and THE RIFLE can shoot. More than likely in a caliber he has shot and loaded 1000s of rounds with in competition. Is this right?

The original post was not about a particular barrel that mr alanF has purchased.

I shot directly before alan on the same target for 3 days at the SA queens so I know the capabilities of alan and his equipment. (60-8 at 800M doesnt happen by accident)

I am sorry I was not referring to alan in any way. I was replying to the original post question.

If there is a problem with a particular barrel maybe the question was posted in such a way as to attract an un biased methodical way of developing a warranty process with barrel makers? That is how I interpreted it at least.

[RDavies]

Ooops, OK, I just thought he bought a dud.
But yes, I agree, it would be good to come up with some sort of reliable system for recourse with dud barrels.

[AlanF]

Just to clarify the original post, yes it wasn't to get advice on a current barrel, but get some discussion going on what F-Class shooters think we should be able to expect in terms of after-sales support for a dud barrel from dealers and barrel makers.

It was interesting that you mentioned 1 MOA at 600yds Rod. That's just a little bigger than the 6 ring. In F-Class, it is important in perfect conditions to be able to get all shots into the 6 ring. Theres lots of sources of inaccuracy other than the barrel,so if a barrel isn't capable of shooting well inside the 6 ring, then its not really doing its part.

Alan

[RDavies]

I think the only way we could get an agreement from multiple barrel makers and gunsmiths would be if you could find something dimensionaly wrong with the barrel, for example if it went tight/loose/tight, if it had bad pitting or inclusions in a section which could prove with a borescope, if it had an internal dogleg of the bore (I like these technical descriptions), or if the bore was a long way of center at one end or other.
It would be hard to measure whether the barrel is stress relieved properly, or if the hardness is even all the way along the barrel.

I think it would be hard to get any recourse just by saying the barrel wont shoot, when dimensionaly it is perfect. Some barrels are dimensionaly perfect, but just dont shoot for some reason in its current configuration, maybe some sort of Feng Shui type thing???

What we would need is some sort of acceptable, measurable limit in bore dimensions and straightness.

[williada]

Assuming the match barrel is a dud, there is clear legal recourse and clear expectation about the degree of accuracy a match barrel should perform. Certainly, an F Open barrel should have a minimum grouping ability of half a minute of angle with hand loaded ammunition or as per centre score of the target. This is some latitude given the competition. Certainly rifles that group one minute of angle are common in hunting rifles and have been advertised as such.
In Victoria and NSW, sellers cannot use exclusion clauses to avoid contractual rights of the buyer and in other states, exclusion clauses can only be used by agreement between the parties. In every contract for the sale of goods there are certain conditions which are automatically made part of the contract by respective state Sale of Goods Acts or by equivalent sections in the Federal Trade Practices Act. In other words, there are implied warranties that become implied conditions and as such, a breach of one of these conditions is the same as a breach of contract for which there are remedies for compensation and or specific performance. So this separates usual commercial warranties, guarantees or policies which can also be enforced. The difference can cause confusion.
The expectation argument is covered in this case by the implied condition, “That the goods shall be of merchantable quality”. The Trade Practices Act sec 74D(3) states, “ Goods of any kind are of merchantable quality...if they are fit for the purpose or purposes for which the goods of that kind are commonly bought as it is reasonable to expect having regard to any description applied to them, the price (if relevant) and all other relevant circumstances.”
If the buyer makes known the purpose for which the goods are required, the goods shall be reasonably fit for that purpose. This is another implied condition. If you buy from an advertisement there is the implied condition that the goods shall correspond with their description. A “Match” barrel is a piece of specialised gear of the highest order.
What these implied conditions do is put the onus back on the seller. If you are getting fobbed off by the seller, be aware that the contract is between you and the seller and not the manufacturer who is a third party. This is privity of contract. The seller has to recover their loss from the manufacturer. You can exercise your additional commercial warranty or guarantee.
From my distant memory, I think the Trade Practices Act covers the costs or return and replacement and I think the seller pays not the consumer. But check it out. The reasonable person test would probably apply to time delays.
State bureaus of Consumer Affairs can advise you of procedures by phone. You could utilise the Small Claims Tribunals in each state. There are no lawyers present and SCT’s do not have the associated expense of court hearings. You could see a solicitor who could write a letter of demand without prejudice for a small fee or your solicitor could bring the matter before the Magistrates Court for which you can seek damages and costs. Particularly the costs of having the barrel independently and professionally tested.
The power is in your hands, but wisdom will determine its use.
David

[AlanF]

Gidday David,

I agree that the consumer protection laws should apply, and that it is the seller (usually a dealer, but sometimes the manufacturer) who should be approached when unsatisfied. But my impression is that most sellers would tell you to go take a running jump if you said your barrel will not shoot better than 1 MOA and its not good enough. In a way I don't blame them because most of us seem to have accepted that attitude in the past, and importantly, the dealers and manufacturers have probably not factored in a sales margin sufficient for them to replace the occasional barrel. If say one in 5 barrels are duds, perhaps they should increase the price by 20% to allow for warranty returns.

Alan