Broughton Barrel Death Pt 2 : All my fault

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ecomeat
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Broughton Barrel Death Pt 2 : All my fault

#1 Postby ecomeat » Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:22 pm

It is with a great deal of personal embarrassment that I share the outcome of my "damaged" Broughton barrel that I reported a couple of weeks ago.
Hopefully my sharing of this might prevent someone else from making the same expensive mistake that I did.
I originally saw the two big craters in the barrel........thought "OH S##T", and got onto Phil Jones, my gunsmith. Phil reported the issue to Broughton straight away and asked me to get the barrel back to him asap.
Phil rang when he got the barrel in the mail, and as a good mate would, asked me to explain to him how I had managed to pound the hell out of the ramp up into the "Leade" with my cleaning rod.
When I went out and saw him a few days later, this is what he had been looking at through his trained eye, with his borescope......
Image

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (You can see where the whole lower circle has been pounded)

So of course i told him not to be *F%$#ing ridiculous.........i use a proper bore guide every time, take extreme care and my Proshot rods, jags and brushes are in perfect condition".
So then we started working through it, and by now the pennies were dropping pretty fast............i was working it all out pretty quick.
Here is a photo of a top quality Redding "accessory" that can help you ruin a $900-00 barrel replacement job too
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Uploaded with ImageShack.us
This is Redding Application Media, tiny ceramic balls to which you add graphite to, and its a perfect neck lube for reloading.
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Uploaded with ImageShack.us
It is also a perfect way to put these tiny, perfectly round, little ceramic "cannon balls" into a case, if it holds the tiniest hint of lube , left over from neck turning.

Fire a shot from a case with a couple of balls inside it, and one or two might smash the ramp into the leade, and then might pull up half way down the barrel, half welded into a land or a groove. A few more shots, a bit more heat, and you can imagine what might be happening. A ceramic ball half stuck to the barrel gets another 105 gr VLD over the top of it, then another , then another.
Eventually with the right amount of heat, and pressure as a 105grainer at 3100 fps smashes over the top again, and you get this
Image

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Or you get this
Image

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In just a few shots , you can turn a superbly accurate, hummer of a barrel that just cost over $900-00 to have fitted, into a tomato stake.

The prevention is pretty damned easy.......clean the cases out properly with Shellite or similar after neck turning, blow out with an air compressor and dry properly. No more problem !!
My mistake had been to use cotton buds and patched wrapped around a 22 cal nylon brush. I genuinely thought that I was doing a really good job, but I simply didnt clean the cases well enough, as I clearly didnt get rid of all of the lube.
I want to acknowledge the appropriate response from Tim North at Broughton when they were first advised by my Gunsmith that I had "a problem" with a new barrel. They told Phil immediately that if he thought the problem was "their barrel", they were happy to replace it, or credit it on the spot, with no questions asked. You just couldnt ask for a fairer response from a barrel maker than that.
As it turns out, none of it had anything to do with Broughton. It was 100% my own fault
The barrel has now been replaced with another Broughton, and thankfully it seems to be just as accurate, and just as easy to break in, as the first one that I wrecked.
My old grandfather used to say that "bought experience was the best type to have, as long as you kept the receipts" !!
Extreme accuracy and precision shooting at long range can be a very addictive pastime.

RAVEN
Posts: 1978
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Location: Adelaide South Australia (CTV)

#2 Postby RAVEN » Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:06 pm

This method of dry lubing necks is ok as you have discovered all the balls must be removed before firing.
I noticed this problem some years ago especially with 6mm or smaller diam. necks.

Mainly because I tip my thrown powder charge into a pan and weigh each charge and notice on numerous occasions the lube balls amongst the powder granules.

Larger cals won't have the same issue
RB

DenisA
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#3 Postby DenisA » Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:19 pm

Great post Tony, cheers for sharing.

I've wondered in the past what those graphite balls might do to a barrel if not removed properly.

I've also wondered what might happen if some brass swarf wasn't removed properly after neck turning.

I'm sure there'd be a few of us out there that may have made this mistake and never been any the wiser, not having access to a bore scope.

Damn, I wish I could get my hands on one now. I'd love to check my barrels out.

I'm told that you need an export permit to get the Hawkeyes out of the US.

Nice heads up, thanks again.

RAVEN
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Location: Adelaide South Australia (CTV)

#4 Postby RAVEN » Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:30 pm

I'm told that you need an export permit to get the Hawkeyes out of the US


Yes apparently the US forces found a Sinclair bore scope in amongst a Talaban weapons cache.
adjustable recoil pads also require an export permit
Talk about over the top US admin :roll:

macguru
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#5 Postby macguru » Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:06 am

I think i will keep on lubricating my cases with spray on canola oil....... it washes off in detergent

AlanF
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#6 Postby AlanF » Sat Apr 06, 2013 9:10 am

With molyed projectiles you don't need to lube inside necks.

Brad Y
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#7 Postby Brad Y » Sat Apr 06, 2013 9:36 am

Heck Ive found with even naked bullets I dont need to lube necks... Ouch mate that is one expensive way to use up barrels!

After neck and body sizing and scrubbing the neck of the case with a nylon brush, I give all my cases a squirt of compressed air to remove any foreign particles. After that its prime, charge and seat.

DenisA
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#8 Postby DenisA » Sat Apr 06, 2013 11:36 am

I think one of the points Tony's making is that when you neck turn and use wax to lube the mandrel, and the mandrel is withdrawn from the neck. Some build up of wax and brass shavings are deposited inside the shoulder. I've also used only "brake clean soaked" cotton buds and compressed air to remove this gunk, but its still may not be enough....... apparently.

I have dipped necks in dry lube in the past when I've only neck sized. I saw back then that the ceramic balls were sometimes getting stuck inside the case. I stopped using dry lube in that operation.
When I lube inside necks, I dip a cotton bud into the media and then swab the neck. Still need to be careful as the cotton picks up the balls sometimes. I've just recently stopped lubing inside necks, only because I thought it could be another point of inconsistancy.

Does anybody ultra sonic clean or tumble after they've neck turned brass?

ecomeat
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#9 Postby ecomeat » Sat Apr 06, 2013 11:53 am

I was having some issues with tight seating .......they just felt "wrong"......on my 284 Win, and Stuart Elliott sold me the Application media, and showed me how its so much cleaner to use than straight graphite powder.
For those that dont know him, Stuart and Annie run BRT here in Brisbane and he has an extraordinary knowledge regarding all aspects of reloading. He doesnt like the concept of bronze brushes in necks, (bloody benchresters) and my two simple options were either a larger bushing, or try the graphite.
I opted to try the graphite, and it worked perfectly. I had probably convinced myself that I could tell the neck tension by feel, down to about 0.001" or even less. Seating with everything at a perfectly even tension does great things for confidence.

With these first fireforming reloads in the 6 x 47 Lapua i certainly didnt have to use lube, but it felt so damned perfect with the 284, and was so clean and easy to do, i took the big "WRONG OPTION, DICKHEAD" and went ahead and used the "application media". I have got to say, they felt just great as I seated them !!
Its a lesson that I dont think I will forget easily.

As Denis pointed out though, it really makes you wonder how many people are still shooting barrels that are effectively ruined (for fine accuracy, anyway) because they dont have access to a borescope and without one, none of my problems could be seen with the naked eye.

I am happy to make mine available to anyone that wants to use it at any competition that I go to, and I would imagine that most other F Classers who own a Hawkeye would be the same.
I would strongly recommend that everyone take any opportunity that they can to have a look inside your own barrels, just so you can appreciate what they are like individually. You never know what you are going to find until you have a close look............and good, bad or indifferent, its good to know what issues you may be dealing with in there.
Extreme accuracy and precision shooting at long range can be a very addictive pastime.

bruce moulds
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#10 Postby bruce moulds » Sat Apr 06, 2013 7:58 pm

tony,
we have all learned a lot from this.
your honesty with us is to be commended.
of equal importance is your honesty with yourself. this will stand you in good sted as a marksman.
keep safe,
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880
http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

ecomeat
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#11 Postby ecomeat » Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:40 am

Bruce,
Thanks for the kind words.
When you are an inexperienced newbie like me, who is an information "sponge", and have learnt an extraordinary amount of technical information by following the many threads on this great website, it's only "right" that I share my screw-ups, especially if it might save someone else from making the same sort of mistakes ! :oops: :oops:
It's pretty clear to me that on OzFClass we have some very talented, intelligent shooters, many of whom can/have/do back up the talk with their performances in competition. I reckon a lot of foreign folks might be quite surprised at how well the Aussie team does at Raton in August. On a population basis, or numbers to choose from, our team will easily "punch way above its weight".
F Class in Australia is alive and kicking !
Tony
Extreme accuracy and precision shooting at long range can be a very addictive pastime.

bruce moulds
Posts: 2900
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 4:07 pm

#12 Postby bruce moulds » Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:53 am

tony,
i take a lot of positive energy from your positivity.
keep safe,
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880

http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

aaronraad
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Location: Brisbane, Australia
Contact:

#13 Postby aaronraad » Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:10 am

RAVEN wrote:
I'm told that you need an export permit to get the Hawkeyes out of the US


Yes apparently the US forces found a Sinclair bore scope in amongst a Talaban weapons cache.
adjustable recoil pads also require an export permit
Talk about over the top US admin :roll:


I know they weren't made in the US, but it's a pity they didn't find a Justin Bieber or One Dimension, sorry One Direction album in the cache as well.
Be careful what you aim for, you might hit it! Antipodean Industrial - Home of the G7L projectiles

Norm
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Location: Gippsland, Victoria

#14 Postby Norm » Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:44 am

DenisA wrote:Does anybody ultra sonic clean or tumble after they've neck turned brass?

Yep, I do when they need it.
I use water with 20% white vinigar and a dash of dish washing detergent.
I then give them a few minutes in a second sonic cleaner with just plain rain water.
They then go into the oven for 15 minutes at 110 degrees on fan forced.

After that they are cooled and inspected. They come out bright and clean inside and out and ready to load without any crud in the primer pockets etc.
If I use the sonic cleaned method I don't use dry lube in the necks but if not I run then into a graphite brush applicator a couple of times to smooth out any residual neck turning lube.

I use Hornady Unique for all my case lube needs. It cleans off easy and the cases come away bright. It also gets the carbon off quite well.

RAVEN
Posts: 1978
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 9:37 pm
Location: Adelaide South Australia (CTV)

#15 Postby RAVEN » Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:14 am

aaronraad

Dang wish I thought of that :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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