New Carbon Fibre F Class Stock - opinions sought

[ecomeat]

I am in the process of ordering (what I think anyway !!) a very fine looking Carbon Fibre stock for F Class.
I was very disappointed at the flex and spring in the McMillan F Class stock that I shoot my BAT in at present, and decided to look for something not so "springy".
This is what I found :


In a private discussion with Michael H from Vic (MCLE on this forum ) it transpired that he had been talking with UK based Mik Maksimovic who runs Dolphin Gun Company in the UK, and who sell a range of fancy F/TR rifles and accessories into the European markets. In his spare time, Mik also organises some of the bigger F Open and F/TR events at the major ranges. Have a geek at their website if you aren't already familiar with it.
Mik has just supplied our MCLE forum member with one of his fancy lightweight FT/R bipods for his son to use, and I think it turned up yesterday.
I contacted Mik direct to enquire about an F Open stock in Carbon Fibre, and he told me straight up that he didn't make his own F T/R stocks in carbon fibre, but rather was having them made in Spain. He happily passed me straight to the Agent in Spain

The Agents name is Alberto Aguado, and he has a very good understanding of everything involved. He handles all enquiries for this stock, which sells for Euro 1100-00 . His English is very good.
If anyone is interested in making similar enquiries regarding a stock for F Open with a 3" forend, his email address is Alberto Aguado <a.aguado@eurotradesl.es>


The stocks are actually made by a competitive young Spanish gunsmith named Ceferino Masip, who has the company Armas Masip. Their webpage is www.armasmasip.com and unfortunately it is all in Spanish and isn't very "modern"
They are the Spanish Distributor for all sorts of goodies in the firearms industry.

The F Open stock that I am getting made is marketed as the "Elite" Carbon Fibre F Class Open stock. Its construction is apparently initiated at a facility that makes carbon fibre parts for F1 race cars and aircraft, and is then finished off by Ceferino at their own facility.
They currently have moulds made for Barnard P, Barnard S, and Rem 700 actions which means I need a custom job for my BAT Model M.
Fortunately I have McMillan A5 stock in the shed that I originally built by rifle on 2.5 yrs ago....then discovered how unsuited it was to F Open. It cost me an arm and a leg to have a Custom inlet done by McMillan but it is a perfect "Drop In" fit for the BAT Model M action.
So, today I am posting off my McMillan A5 to Spain so they can use it to perfectly replicate the inletting, and about 8 weeks after they receive it, they will post it back to me along with my new Elite Carbon Fibre F Open stock.
It will be 35" long, with a LOP of 13", both measured without the Butt Plate affixed. that is about 4" longer than my McMillan F CLass that I currently use.
What I would hope to hear please is comments on the concept of Carbon Fibre for stocks. Any input on the concept of "stiffness" ?
Both Phil Jones (Redback Precision) and Stuart Elliott (BRT) commented that having a "too stiff" stock could possibly be a real bummer that could never shoot. Apparently a number have been tried in Benchrest, but have always been built onto a core of very soft, light wood such as balsa wood.
They reckon that the softer internal "core" soaks up some of the initial recoil energy, and that without THAT happening, I could easily have a rifle that will never be accurate enough for F Open .
This "Elite" carbon fibre stock from Spain is 100% carbon fibre and resins, so it has no internal core as such.
Alan Fraser and Rod Davies both shoot metallic looking skeleton stocks and are FCWC Gold Medallists and World Champions with them !! I am a dumb farmer, but I cant see how their stocks could have anything resembling a "soft wood core".
Gentlemen, would you please comment ? Its hard to imagine how there is any recoil dampening effect (if that's what is so important to accuracy) in any of the modern stock like AI, or DTA etc
Alberto Aguado makes the point that anything made from Carbon fibre can never be as stiif/rigid as a steel bar, and that the secret is in the number of layers of the carbon fibre, and the orientation of those layers .
It makes sense to me, and I am going to try one.
Tony

[johnk]

Tony,

Do you use a cheekpiece?

How would you clean if it was a glue in? The butt/cheek looks awful high.

John

[ecomeat]

Good point, Birthday Boy.
I don't use a cheek piece myself, but you raise a good point. I hadn't seen that and will have to get it altered.

[Longranger]

Hmmmm.... I have often wondered about the "stock being too stiff" theory and promptly discounted it with the miriad of alloy benchrest, f class, full bore and high end smallbore stocks out there. Even tube guns as well. Set up, they all drive tacks.

Some like the natural resilience of timber and it's ability to absorb vibration.

The main thing is stability under all conditions methinks...

[aaronraad]

What happened to Wild Dog Australia?

[ecomeat]

Aaron,
I am pretty sure that Mark is actually trying to put something together so that they could kick in to gear again and resume offering carbon fibre reinforced stocks, but was waiting on the Stock Maker/Technician guy tHat actually made them to hopefully return to Brisbane.
I got them to put one of their CF reinforced stocks on an old Omark 6.4 x 47 that I had bought......which I eventually sold.....and I really liked the feel and fit of it.
I would get one of theirs at the drop of a hat, if they made an F Open stock with a 3" .

[aaronraad]

Aaron,
I am pretty sure that Mark is actually trying to put something together so that they could kick in to gear again and resume offering carbon fibre reinforced stocks, but was waiting on the Stock Maker/Technician guy tHat actually made them to hopefully return to Brisbane.
I got them to put one of their CF reinforced stocks on an old Omark 6.4 x 47 that I had bought......which I eventually sold.....and I really liked the feel and fit of it.
I would get one of theirs at the drop of a hat, if they made an F Open stock with a 3" .

Nice guy Vince, and not a bad shot either.

Those moulds are worth a small fortune. I hope Mark can get back up and going, it would be a shame to see them go to waste.

I always thought a stock made of GLARE (AkzoNobel) would be a good compromise with the advantages of aluminium and fibreglass in a machineable sheet/block.

http://www.agy.com/markets/PDFs/NEW_AGY205spaceGLARE.pdf

The carbon fibre wood laminate stocks are very appealing to the eye, though I'm not sure how they perform in a target rifle design.

http://www.eberlestock.com/CFW%20Stocks.htm

I assume anything out of the US is too difficult (ITAR's) or just priced out of the market at the moment?

[IanP]

Good point, Birthday Boy.
I don't use a cheek piece myself, but you raise a good point. I hadn't seen that and will have to get it altered.

Tony, the cheek height looks good to me in the picture. You can see the cutout for the bolt recess and the cheek height looks right where I set my adjustable cheek piece. Action and barrel would need to be removed from stock to clean.

You wont know how the stiffness of carbon fibre affects recoil until you have it in your hands to test. I have a couple of Manners carbon composite stocks and they both shoot well. Both of the Manners stocks have the carbon/glass composite outer shell with a soft inner core. Personal preference is for my laminated stocks in F-Open but I just like the look and feel of them. I'm pretty sure carbon fibre will work well otherwise he wouldn't be making them to sell.

Be interesting to hear how the stock performs once you have it in your possession. It will certainly be light and enable heavy actions/scopes and long barrels, so your choices for components to use in the build will be endless.

Ian

[MCLE]

Hi ecomeat yes the Bipod arrived and it looks well made and very light.i would post a pic but I'm having no end of trouble doing it with iPad or mabe it's me.

[MCLE]

This is the new Bipod that l picked up for Liam to use on his rifle to try a little FTR with this bipod it comes under the 8.25 Kg

[DaveMc]

Looks like a nice stock but the cleaning would annoy me (assuming the bolt can be removed with that cutout).
Have you thought about Carbn fibre wrapping your existing mcmillan?
I did this a couple of years ago with mine. I cut the forend back and laid up with foam sandwich and carbon fibre and it stiffened it right up. If I did it again I would keep a lower profile and less (if any) foam. It did however turn out very functional and tracked beautifully in the SEB.

[Fergus Bailey]

From my own benchrest centric point of view, I would be very uncomfortable with an unfilled carbon fiber stock - I certainly would not use one on any rifle.

As noted already, benchrest shooters have had a lot of success with several different carbon fiber / wood composite stocks over the last 10 or so years. The single most successful/popular design is the Bob Scoville/ Bob Scarborough made stocks (they are essentially the same stock, with some minor nuances). These stocks are laminated sections of balsa, with some redwood, and internal carbon fiber reinforcement, wrapped in carbon fiber or carbon fiber/Kevlar fabric. The other BR stock of note is the Terry Lenoard, which is a redwood / carbon fiber laminate composite, but is not wrapped.

Any review of the equipment list for a major BR shoot will typically show that of the top twenty rifles listed, something in the order of 15 to 20 used one of these 3 stocks.

The combination of wood and carbon fiber seems to work very well for rifles that must produce the best accuracy possible. I am not suggesting other materials can not produce accuracy of the highest order, because there is plenty of evidence that they can. But if you want to look at what is consistently winning in BR today, these carbon fiber/wood laminates are definitely at the top of the leader board most of the time.

I have had a number of discussions with a USA Hall of Fame BR shooter on stock construction, and he is adamant that:

vibration dampening is a very important issue, and
an unfilled skin on a BR stock is detrimental to accuracy.

He recounted a story where he had two largely identical BR rifles, one with a stock which was a composite skin filled with foam, and the other that was a hollow composite skin (ie the same skin, but no foam filling). Both stocks came from the same maker, but for whatever reason they were constructed slightly differently. From day 1, the rifle with the filled stock shot very well, but the rifle with the unfilled stock shot so-so. Following a discussion with a well regarded BR gunsmith on this issue, the gunsmith took the poorly shooting rifle, drilled a hole in the stock and filled it with expanding foam. From then on, the rifle began shooting significantly better than when it was hollow.

I know this is somewhat subjective, but hopefully it gives some insight into what is proven to win in the field of BR, and to some small extent, why it is seeing that success.

[ecomeat]

Fergus,
Thanks for the input. I can't miss hearing what the Benchrest world has experienced, but would like to ask this :
How do the numbers of fully metal or aluminum stocks, including the DTA's, the AI's , the many tube guns etc.......manage to be accurate when there is clearly no softer, inner core to absorb ANY recoil or movement ?
I have never fired one, but I am sure that I have read many Internet posts where these rifles can repeatedly shoot bug holes.
Don't get me wrong..........I am hearing what you guys are saying....... but I just can't rationalize in my own mind how a softer "recoil absorbing/vibration dampening core" can be seen as essential, yet these rifle styles mentioned are basically solid metal.
Help me out here !
Tony

[DenisA]

Looks like a nice stock but the cleaning would annoy me (assuming the bolt can be removed with that cutout).
Have you thought about Carbn fibre wrapping your existing mcmillan?
I did this a couple of years ago with mine. I cut the forend back and laid up with foam sandwich and carbon fibre and it stiffened it right up. If I did it again I would keep a lower profile and less (if any) foam. It did however turn out very functional and tracked beautifully in the SEB.

G'day Dave,

You referenced back to this experience of yours in another thread.

I haven't gone any further with stiffening my stock yet, though I'm interested in your suggestion.

Have you got any photo's of the old project?

How thick was the wrapping that you used?

Did you do the whole stock or just forend to trigger?

Cheers, Denis.

[ecomeat]

[i]

Looks like a nice stock but the cleaning would annoy me (assuming the bolt can be removed with that cutout).
Have you thought about Carbn fibre wrapping your existing mcmillan?
I did this a couple of years ago with mine. I cut the forend back and laid up with foam sandwich and carbon fibre and it stiffened it right up. If I did it again I would keep a lower profile and less (if any) foam. It did however turn out very functional and tracked beautifully in the SEB.

G'day Dave,
You referenced back to this experience of yours in another thread.
I haven't gone any further with stiffening my stock yet, though I'm interested in your suggestion.Have you got any photo's of the old project?
How thick was the wrapping that you used?
Did you do the whole stock or just forend to trigger?
Cheers, Denis.

Dave.....*ditto*.....any chance that you took some step by step photo's .
The Spanish agent, Alberto, just emailed me regarding the cleaning issue and said
"You can clean the barrel without the need of big bend in the rod, just a gentle bend."
My grandfather always said that when your feet get cold you should put your hat on. I think I need my hat ..........coz my feet are definitely getting cold!
Tony