Arms Race the cost of a super (X)

[MCLE]

I was having a chat with one of SA top Fclass shooters yesterday and the topic come up.It went like this .lets just say it costs 100,000 to build a drag car that runs a 10 seconds but to run 8 sec you have to spend three times that amount.And to shave time of that you have to spend even more and it goes on to the point where the gain in speed is minimal to the amount of money spent.And so using this analogy lets just say 2 shooters starting out with a Couple of old Omarks cutting there teeth and after some time become good shooters the same level and ability.But they upgrade to new rifles scopes and the like.Does the one that decides to keep spending get the better scores. I think that this may be more relevant in Fopen ?? don't know if it is as true in Fstandard.. Or is it the case that to get that extra X it costs in the same way to shave off 2 tenths of a second costs.Are we getting to the point where it is possible to bye a better score ???I'm not completely convinced of this but can see he's point.It was a interesting chat and he told me that pistol shooting went through the same thing years back . I'm not saying that it is a good or bad thing just found the conversation interesting.Thanks
Michael H

[AlanF]

Michael,

There is no doubt that money helps, but compared with many sports, its a relatively small part of the recipe for success. And even then, the money needs to be spent in the right areas, or it won't give any advantage e.g not much advantage in spending big on multiple expensive scopes and stocks and ignoring the fact that barrels are the biggest variable i.e buy lots of barrels and you'll get a few very good ones.

But assuming you are able to afford an average F-Open setup, then there are other things that matter much more than spending additional $. In general they involve a willingness to learn, and the expenditure of time and effort.

Alan

[RAVEN]

I doesn’t matter how much you spend at the end of the day it is the human element that wins or loses at competition.

No point in having the most expensive rifle on the mound if you can’t read the wind or develop a proper load for that rifle.

But those people that do spent a lot of their hard earned $$ also may just love to own the best that they can afford.
RB

[MCLE]

[quote="RAVEN"]I doesn’t matter how much you spend at the end of the day it is the human element that wins or loses at competition.

No point in having the most expensive rifle on the mound if you can’t read the wind or develop a proper load for that rifle.

But those people that do spent a lot of their hard earned $$ also may just love to own the best that they can afford.
RB
Yes thats right but but let's just say the ability of the shooters is the same does the extra $$$ spent give one shooter a bigger score at the end of the day does that give him that 10 th of a sec to use the Drag car scenario. As l said not judging just curious. Thanks Michael H

[bartman007]

+1 for Alan's comments.

+1 for Richard's comments.

However, there is some edge to be gained by having fresh equipment. A rifle that is grouping 1/4 MOA will assist the shooter to have an edge over one grouping 1/2 MOA. After all, a 60.8 beats a 60.5 or worse you just miss the line at 3 or 9 o'clock and get a 5.

Michael I think I read somewhere once, that ...... You can buy a score! .....

Or was I just in conversation with a salesman.

[johnk]

Michael,

Money can buy points, but not necessarily in the way that you illustrate.

I buy a barrel & live with it, whether it's a nit's whisker better or worse than the last. Another person might discard a questionable one & rebarrel until he hits the jackpot.

I use a barrel until it goes belly up. Another shooter might have the resources to save the walk-on-water barrels for major shoots & fit a pedestrian one for weekend shoots.

I have a single action & stock that's fitted with barrels in 2 open calibres & .308, though I do have 2 triggers. Others have individual barreled actions and in many cases individual stocks.

It's likely that you can shoot more relaxed with the extra gear - as long as you're built like Mark & can carry it all onto the mound.

John

[DaveMc]

I would say this sport is one where the $ spent is less of an advantage in comparison to many other pure technical sports. It shouldn't cost that much to get a rifle and scope capable of shooting well enough to win major events (I had savage and sightron combos shooting just as well as the current Barnard/March and would be happy still using them and have regularly been flogged by omarks). As Alan said barrels are where the $ should be spent but you may get lucky and get a hummer early.

I agree with Raven too and think the money spent on shooting/competition time (and learning to wind read) is where it pays off. Especially travelling to different ranges and getting a variety of wind conditions, And that does get expensive.

[AlanF]

...let's just say the ability of the shooters is the same does the extra $$$ spent give one shooter a bigger score at the end of the day does that give him that 10 th of a sec to use the Drag car scenario...

Michael,

If its spent in the right way of course it will make a difference, all else being equal. But I'd suggest that most people with a huge amount of $ to spend would be so busy either earning it, or being distracted by spending it on other things, they wouldn't have enough time to spend on what really matters to succeed in F-Class i.e. learning and practicing .

Alan

[MCLE]

...let's just say the ability of the shooters is the same does the extra $$$ spent give one shooter a bigger score at the end of the day does that give him that 10 th of a sec to use the Drag car scenario...

Michael,

If its spent in the right way of course it will make a difference, all else being equal. But I'd suggest that most people with a huge amount of $ to spend would be so busy either earning it, or being distracted by spending it on other things, they wouldn't have enough time to spend on what really matters to succeed in F-Class i.e. learning and practicing .

I think that is probably right Alan $ can be spent in more than one way not just on equipment but in finding time.Wearing out Barrels practicing may well be a good way to spend your Hard Earned .Michael H

[aaronraad]

I doesn’t matter how much you spend at the end of the day it is the human element that wins or loses at competition.

No point in having the most expensive rifle on the mound if you can’t read the wind or develop a proper load for that rifle.

But those people that do spent a lot of their hard earned $$ also may just love to own the best that they can afford.
RB

Yes thats right but but let's just say the ability of the shooters is the same does the extra $$$ spent give one shooter a bigger score at the end of the day does that give him that 10 th of a sec to use the Drag car scenario. As l said not judging just curious. Thanks Michael H

Does the repeatable(average?) skill level of the shooters exceed the repeatable accuracy and centring of the equipment? No point having an extra 10th of second in your Drag car is you're reaction time at the lights is 1.5 seconds.

In any event just ask your partner/spouse if you're spending too much on your equipment without getting any results.

[Brad Y]

Someone once told me that FO was won by who had the deepest pockets and that FS was a fairer discipline. I dont listen much to that person anymore. To me cost of the ammo/components is what makes FS cheaper than FO and is the only attraction to that discipline.

I look at it like this:

If you compete your obviously "in it to win it".
If you can be "in it" with an omark or a barnard, nobody cares.
I just want to see more people to be "in it to win it".
Tune what you have well, and read wind better than your competition, and shoot better than your compeition and your gunna "win it".

[Quick]

Personally, the only saving I see on a day to day basis is that barrel wear on FS rifles is lower then FO rifles, other wise its cheaper for me on a day to day basis to run my FO rifle due to bullet cost and powder amount used.

[IanP]

I think "arms race" is the wrong tack to take in this discussion on shooting X's. Its never been about an arms race its always been about what best suits the shooter. The same shooter's names always seem to appear at the pointy end of the field at the finish of competitions.

Its not as simple as buying what you consider to be the best quality or most expensive components, its about what can you shoot accurately. Its about the development of the load and getting sub 0.25 moa groups with low SDs. Its about having a healthy body and good eyesight so you are capable of shooting small groups. You cant buy a healthy body capable of tiny groups you gotta work at it and persevere.

There is not a one best gun solution in our sport and probably never will be. There are many calibres, barrels, actions, stocks, bullets, cases and powders and endless combinations to be tried.

The best advantage is not in equipment, but in the intelligence and perception of the shooter to piece together a rifle that best serves their attributes.

Ian

[DenisA]

I'm not a very well travelled shooter, but the best shoot that I've ever seen was by DaveMc at the 2013 National Queens. We saw EVERY condition that I've ever experienced and many that I hadn't, including wet flags, multiple direction and condition changes through each detail and heavy rain over 3 days and 9 ranges.

Dave dropped 2 points over the whole thing!!!!
With out meaning to Lord Dave too much, it was absolutely awe inspiring.
I regularly drop double that in 1 shot.

Point being, I'm certain Dave has good gear as previously mentioned, but I'm certain that its not a lot different to a lot of the gear that was out there at that event

I believe that F-Open is such a sport that you can't win major prize meets with an entry level rifle and it cost money to have competetive equipment. Also, I believe that if Dave and I swapped rifles for a detail, he'd still whoop my ass.

As previously mentioned though, if we had more money to burn and spare time, we'd have more range time and more experience. Then we'd need more money to buy more bullets and barrels.

As far as equipment goes though, I think it gets to a certain level of cost where it stops reaping advantage.

[Cameron Mc]

......................

As far as equipment goes though, I think it gets to a certain level of cost where it stops reaping advantage.

You hit the nail on the head Denis.

I believe it all comes down to range time and importantly, knowing your gear inside out. Especially barrel behaviour. When to clean, when not to etc.

Cam