Trying to explain flyers

[bshrestha01]

After today's Anzac day prize meet down at Anzac range, I came up with some issues and I wish to understand what is going on. Here is what happened:

During the first string, I went from 5 (second sighter) on the right (3 O' clock) to 4 on bottom left (8ish O' clock) for no apparent reason. Thinking it was a bad shot or a bad reload, I shot the next one without changing anything and the shot landed right on top of the last shot on 4. I never recovered from that and kept shooting 4s and 5s and ended up dropping 14 points.

During the second string (11 counting shots), I shot a 4 at 9 O' clock on first sighter. I adjusted, shot and hit an X. I took the next shot and it just went to 4 at 8-ish O' clock. I took the next shot without changing anything and ended with a 6, which is understandable as I knew it was me. I ended the string with 62 with 4 supers, 3 of those supers in a row.

Try as I might, and I asked a whole lot of guys around about it, I never got any explanation that I was convinced with on what happened that pushed all the shots down to 4 on the bottom left.

Another thing that I noticed was, as I was getting ready to pull the trigger, it felt as if the crosshair was flicking left and right as if it was in the middle of a wind adjustment and it did not know which way to go. My scope has 1/8 MOA per click and the flicking felt like it was around 1/4 to 1/3 MOA.

[aaronraad]

Another thing that I noticed was, as I was getting ready to pull the trigger, it felt as if the crosshair was flicking left and right as if it was in the middle of a wind adjustment and it did not know which way to go. My scope has 1/8 MOA per click and the flicking felt like it was around 1/4 to 1/3 MOA.

Here are a couple of 'maybes' to add to the list:

1. Astigmatism in your shooting eye - getting split crosshairs vert &/or horz drives me nuts and then I put my computer glasses back on;
2. Scope parallax focus not quite true for the distance, especially if you just edge that little bit forward with the trigger pull?

If you can work with another club member(s) on the range over a couple of practice weekends it becomes easier to eliminate possibilities. Swap rifles, swap scopes etc.

You can pull everything apart on your own rig, ammunition and reloading practices etc; but unless you've been measuring previously, or it's to easy to identify, then you risk changing half a dozen variables and not identify the cause. For example it's easier to check the scope bases are tight than to start measuring the concentricity of your loaded ammunition.

[Josh Cox]

This might help..........

http://rifleman.org.uk/Fuller_group_diagnosis.htm

[bshrestha01]

Another thing that I noticed was, as I was getting ready to pull the trigger, it felt as if the crosshair was flicking left and right as if it was in the middle of a wind adjustment and it did not know which way to go. My scope has 1/8 MOA per click and the flicking felt like it was around 1/4 to 1/3 MOA.

1. Astigmatism in your shooting eye - getting split crosshairs vert &/or horz drives me nuts and then I put my computer glasses back on;

I wear glasses. I am an IT guy and I use the same glasses for the whole day, and use the same set for shooting. I may need to get my eyes checked again.

If you can work with another club member(s) on the range over a couple of practice weekends it becomes easier to eliminate possibilities. Swap rifles, swap scopes etc.

I intend to do this when I go back to club shooting. I did try to swap the scopes and found the same flicking at time on the other scope. I put these flicking down to the quality of the scopes (both cheap made in China sub $200 scopes)

[IanP]

This might help..........

http://rifleman.org.uk/Fuller_group_diagnosis.htm

Josh, thats shooting smalbore with aperture sights and off a sling!

Ian

[AlanF]

Bhaskar,

A couple of things. Flyers are not necessarily something that will give an accurate clue to what the problem is. Often they are just the outlying shots of a big group, and very few groups are neatly round.

Your description of the flicking of the cross-hair left to right sounds to me like a rifle stock or setup issue. Scope problems are not all that common and it nearly always turns out to be something else ! I've seen what you've described mostly in buffeting wind, and also with a stock that was flexing too much sideways, but there are probably other similar causes.

Can you describe the stock and your front and rear rest setup? Is it the Savage in the photo in http://ozfclass.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5637. If it is then the front rest setup looks like it could be improved.

Try a few changes with your setup, and see if it helps.

Alan

[macguru]

You have 2 308s so you should be able to swap scopes to rule out a fault there.

also. let someone who shoots very high scores shoot a stage with your rifle to rule out a technique problem. He may also pick up a setup issue if there is one.

I am yet to see a savage ftr with factory barrel that will group as well as an aftermarket target barrel. Most will only hold the 5 ring (unless handpicked by stan pate from the factory floor )

[Southcape]

Take a look at all your gear. Your rear bag plays a bigger part than many realise. Are the ears filled the same? Are they firm but not over filled? Is the body of the bag filled firmly? Do you use anything under your rear bag. Do the two pieces make firm solid contact? Or does the bag slide around?

Do you use a front rest? Does your rifle slide backwards and forwards when shooting? Or does it torque? Do you use a rifle stop on the front of the rest?

My first .308 barrel used to send out a flyer into one o'clock. The classic sign of bad recoil Managment. I fought with my position for months and because I had switched from the .223 to .308 and thought I just lacked the ability to handle it.

[bshrestha01]

Often they are just the outlying shots of a big group, and very few groups are neatly round.

Alan, I understand the outlying shots of a group but this was about 1.5 minutes left and 0.5 minutes down from the nearest shot in the group. I dropped 2 other points and I know for sure one was me pulling the shot and another was a bit to the right (opposite direction to the flyer) caught by the wind. In both these cases, the difference was less than 1 minute from the group.

Can you describe the stock and your front and rear rest setup? Is it the Savage in the photo in http://ozfclass.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5637. If it is then the front rest setup looks like it could be improved.

Yes, that is the rifle I used, except for the front rest which is the bipod used in the omark (one in the middle). I am not very comfortable with the rest so I use the bipod.

Take a look at all your gear. Your rear bag plays a bigger part than many realise.

The rear bag is wobbly and I have to constantly hassle around with it to get me back to the right target. I need to fix that issue as well. Thanks for pointing that out.

also. let someone who shoots very high scores shoot a stage with your rifle to rule out a technique problem. He may also pick up a setup issue if there is one.

I intend to do that when I go shooting next. I may have to ask our club champ to try it out.

Thank you all for your feedback

[RDavies]

If they would have let the 18 F Open shooters shoot at Malaba, there could have been plenty of technical people there who could have helped you
. Maybe next time we will be able to help you on the spot.

Another thing to consider is the targets. Were they electronic? If so, last time I shot there, some targets were generous, being able to stay well inside the X ring on target 6 and 8 for example, but everyone on targets 4 and 6 were having gun tune problems?????

[bshrestha01]

If they would have let the 18 F Open shooters shoot at Malaba, there could have been plenty of technical people there who could have helped you
. Maybe next time we will be able to help you on the spot.

Another thing to consider is the targets. Were they electronic? If so, last time I shot there, some targets were generous, being able to stay well inside the X ring on target 6 and 8 for example, but everyone on targets 4 and 6 were having gun tune problems?????

I don't remember any F-Open shooters in any Anzac day shoot in Malabar.

Anyways, yes the targets were electronic and incidentally I was shooting at our clubs targets at E7 (E8 being our other club target). And to top it off I shot after a guy shot 60.7 in the first round and we had 2 scores of 66.7 and 1 score of 66.6 (11 counting shots) so I think I can safely say it was not the target.

I remember the issues during the Australia day shoot when Greg Emms shot a 3 at 12 O' Clock and it was his third shot. This guy rarely shoots a 4 as a sighter.

[RDavies]

If they would have let the 18 F Open shooters shoot at Malaba, there could have been plenty of technical people there who could have helped you
. Maybe next time we will be able to help you on the spot.


Another thing to consider is the targets. Were they electronic? If so, last time I shot there, some targets were generous, being able to stay well inside the X ring on target 6 and 8 for example, but everyone on targets 4 and 6 were having gun tune problems?????

I don't remember any F-Open shooters in any Anzac day shoot in Malabar.



Anyways, yes the targets were electronic and incidentally I was shooting at our clubs targets at E7 (E8 being our other club target). And to top it off I shot after a guy shot 60.7 in the first round and we had 2 scores of 66.7 and 1 score of 66.6 (11 counting shots) so I think I can safely say it was not the target.

I remember the issues during the Australia day shoot when Greg Emms shot a 3 at 12 O' Clock and it was his third shot. This guy rarely shoots a 4 as a sighter.

F Open was not allowed at this shoot.

If there were others who were getting great scores on your target, then no, this was not the problem. It was more likely one of the issues people have brought up in the last few posts.

[plumbs7]

I intend to do this when I go back to club shooting. I did try to swap the scopes and found the same flicking at time on the other scope. I put these flicking down to the quality of the scopes (both cheap made in China sub $200 scopes) quote :


There's ur problem ! When I started out out I used cheap scopes and were good for learning purposes and just to get into the sport . All of them 3 in total eventually broke ! And now are gathering dust !

One did hold it's zero and did dial accurately for a little while then broke !
Doesn't inspire confidence !
I love Nightforce and majority of the scopes I see on the line are that brand . They are expensive ! But I know if my zero is playing up it's not the scope . Don't skimp either on the mounts as u can break nightforce scopes too . Use their brand and u won't get any flex . I have had troubles with one of my nightforces and it had cheap mounts . The company's service is great and the savage and the scope that It sits on is a tack driver again. Not the scopes fault!

U have to have absolute confidence in ur gear and ur zero . Especially when u r dealing with 4 conditions in a string eg fishtail winds ! Or going from a full value to a boil condition !

I agree with all of the above and parralex is a biggie .
Whitest sighted on ur target if u nod ur head up and down or left and right . And the cross hairs move all over the target . That's parralex error ! And that's what ur group is going to look like ! Might explain some of ur 4 ring shots !

Adjust ur focus knob whilst nodding ur head up and down or left and right , until the cross hairs stop moving over all of the target .

Have lost plenty of comps at 300 yds because of nervs and parralex error .
In Major comps I'll go to the extent of deliberately adjusting my focus way out of wack when I get my rifle out of the car so I can't forget on the line .

I saw the groups u were shooting at fifty meters and they looked impressive and the fact u got 4 supers I think means ur technique is pretty sound .

Anyway c it as a journey and that the fun part . If we all shot possibles straight up we would quit . Many times I've been humbled ( which I really need at times ... Big Ego!!!lol) that's what keeps us combing back !
It has taken me 7 and a half years to shoot my first possible 22.2.14 600 yds. Finally never give up! 😊 hope this helps !

[plumbs7]

You have 2 308s so you should be able to swap scopes to rule out a fault there.

also. let someone who shoots very high scores shoot a stage with your rifle to rule out a technique problem. He may also pick up a setup issue if there is one.

I am yet to see a savage ftr with factory barrel that will group as well as an aftermarket target barrel. Most will only hold the 5 ring (unless handpicked by stan pate from the factory floor )

Mate I'm sorry to disagree .... I have a savage hsp10fcp and got a third at Muckadilla 2012 OPM with it ! It's now my hunting rifle and shoots tiny ragged one hole groups . 😊

[macguru]

You are not disagreeing, so thats ok

The rifle you have is completely different to the ftr.... savages are great out of the box and the one you bought is one i would buy too.

I just bought a savage 10 PC myself, for a bit of fun and as a compact hunting rifle. However I have seen alot of FTRs and not many good scores .... a few, but not many... I am not sure why but maybe the barrels are not as good. But as I said the short 1 in 10 chrome moly you have is from a different batch entirely and they have a good rep....