Ladder testing 284 Win with 2213sc powder

ecomeat · Post by **ecomeat** » Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:37 pm

Attached photo is a ladder test for my 284 Win, done last week at 300 yards, using Berger 180 gr VLDs and 2213sc powder.
Rifle is a BAT Model M and 29.5" Maddco 1 in 9" twist, glued into a McMillan F Class stock. Jewell trigger set at 6ozs and all work by Phil Jones.
Scope is a March 5-50 x 56 with MR2 reticle, in Ken Farrel rings ex Stuart and Annie at BRT
Bullets jammed 0.006" to 0.008" into the lands. Federal 210M primers and virgin Lapua 6.5 x 284 brass on first firing after necking up to 7mm.
Shot number, powder charge and velocity at 10' in lower right hand cnr.
Shots numbered 1 to 9
Lines above flouro aiming mark are 1" apart. Vertical columns 1-5 just to help establish location of each shot so i didnt get lost with my plotting.
Gentle (2-3 mph) winds from 9-12 oclock. Crystal clear, perfect day for vision.

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I know perfectly well that just getting this result the once doesnt prove much at all, but being a newbie, I still got up from my bench pretty happy with how the exercise had gone. Tried to do it again at 500 yards a day later, using a video camera on the target to save many klm , but 20-30mph winds and rain sort of wrecked the second attempt.

I thought nodes were normally quite tight. Is the clear "node" here too wide to expect it to be repeatable ?? Or is it common enough for a node to run over a full grain like this ?
No pressure signs whatsoever at these mild velocities. How much further do i need to go ?? I am sort of assuming that I need to do it again, probably starting half a grain lower, and going a couple of grains higher, hopefully to 2850 fps or so ??
I will definitely be trying it with BR2 primers following responses to my other post re "primers".
Hopefully a few members might have time to share their thoughts.
These loads were thrown by hand, then check weighed on the digital scales of an RCBS chargemaster.......hence the last 2 shots registering as slower manages to make me pull my hair out. Frustrating !!
Regards
Tony

bruce moulds · Post by **bruce moulds** » Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:23 pm

tony,
6,7,8,9, looks like a good node.
it would be interesting to compare a ladder with the other primers, all else being equal, directly against this one.
it is good to do ladders with fireformed brass and a barrel run in at least 200 shots to prevent little surprises.
at least 5 fouling shots is a good way to preceed a ladder.
looking at your speeds, you could take the ladder higher, pressures permitting.
i would fireform all my cases loaded with shot no 7, in matches, and test then.
you will be surprised how hard it is to tell the difference in wind deflection between 2730 & 2850, but you can tell the difference in case life, and barrel life, as well as recoil.
if 2730 gives a more accurate node than 2850, you will shoot better scores with it, despite some current theories concerning this.
keep safe, bruce.

ecomeat · Post by **ecomeat** » Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:41 pm

Thanks Bruce.
I did use 4 x fouling shots before starting the ladder, using 168 gr VLDs and 2209, which was hopefully enough to make it a fair test.
Barrel had done approx 225 at this stage, so I can safely call it "run in".
Over the next week, I will try to do the whole ladder test again at 300 yards, including more at both ends, and using at least 3 x different primers. You are right, it should be an interesting result, only changing primers.
I have only got another 20 odd shots (all preloaded at present) to shoot off and fire-form, and once that is done, I will be starting fresh with 300 freshly fire-formed cases so all serious testing in the next week will be with freshly fire-formed cases as per your suggestion.
Rgds
Tony

bruce moulds · Post by **bruce moulds** » Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:38 pm

tony,
the good thing about that node is it is 4 shots @ 0.3 gn, nearly a grain max to min.
this offers a good ammount of forgiveness.
i just wonder if it might shift a bit with fireformed brass, possibly won't.
i have personally experienced, and witnessed others achieve fantastic accuracy while fireforming.
this is why i am happy to fls every shot using a min fls bushing die.
ain't it fun on this road to discovery?
keep safe,
bruce.

RDavies · Post by **RDavies** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:54 am

Did I read correctly that you fired your foulers with 2209, but did your ladder with 2213sc? I have tried using 2213sc loads in a barrel which had been shooting 2209 and it took a few rounds to settle down.

If you are using 2213sc, I would certainly try going uo to 2850 in your next ladder. If your barrel is a slow one, it might cost some cases, but it might be a hummer load??

ecomeat · Post by **ecomeat** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 8:24 am

Yes that is correct re the foulers fired.
I had some 168s left over that were loaded with 51.4 of 2209 , so used 4 of them as my foulers.
I just don't know enough about the technical side of what I am doing with reloading to actually have "a plan". I just figured that as I normally have only shot 2-4 foulers before shooting for "score" at F Class ( I occasionally fire a couple of shots at home the afternoon before, if I have really scrubbed my barrel clean) then thought that surely 4 foulers would be enough before trying those first shots using 2213sc.
Keen to hear what your recommendations are !

bruce moulds · Post by **bruce moulds** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 8:24 am

rod, that might suggest that this node is an even better one.
it can overcome problems like that. ( if it is a problem)
2850 might produce a node, but it would be hard pressed to beat the one here.
there are no silver bullets in this job. if you think 2850 will give noticably better scores than 2730, look for hair on the palms of your hands.
keep safe,
bruce.

Post by **AlanF** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 8:33 am

Shot 9 velocity looks very odd. If it is correct or even close, then it can't really be used to support the shot 6, 7 and 8 node.

I agree with Rod that it would be good to go a bit higher in velocity Tony. Anything below 2850 will be gentle on brass and bore, and all else being equal, extra velocity will improve your scores in the long run. If you have a BAT action and March scope, you can obviously afford not to be skimping on barrel and brass life.

Alan

ecomeat · Post by **ecomeat** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 9:25 am

Those velocity reading issues cause me immense anxiety.
As a newbie to F Class, it was a terrific boost for me when Rod Davies kindly shared his thoughts and experience on Nodes, on one of my previous posts , and then the real chronograph issues surfaced.
I bought a Shooting Chrony Beta Master about 18 mth ago, and simply hate the bloody thing. If it chooses to work.......maybe 40% of the time if I am lucky....... then it gives grossly inconsistent results as "par for the course". Mostly it just gives an Error.
Bought a MagnetoSpeed V1 a couple of months ago, then realised that Rods velocities had to have been taken with a normal Chrony, probably 10 feet or so from the muzzle. So did some tests.
First problem is undoubtedly that the V1 MagnetoSpeed is only meant to work on barrels UP TO 1". I had it working consistently on my fatter 1.1" barrel on the 284 Win by removing the rubber spacer.
Anyway, using the MS at the same time as shooting over a mates Shooting Chrony Beta Master that DID WORK every time, the results were showing the 6.5 x 47 Lap (a 1" barrel) to be 50 fps slower at 10' than the MS at the muzzle, and showed the 284 to be 100 fps slower.
Obviously that can't be right, so part of the problem is undoubtedly the MSpeed reading. I have bitten the bullet ........so to speak.......and bought the new V2 MagnetoSpeed which can apparently read accurately on barrels up to 2" in diameter. It is in the air somewhere on its way from the USA.
Doing load development work a few days ago, I set up for 3 x chronys at once....the MagnetoSpeed on the barrel, then through our Clubs Pro Chrony (which does give believable, consistent results) and then thru my Shooting Chrony which decided to work intermittently..
The Shooting Chrony, which was last in sequence regularly read 40-50 fps faster than the Pro Chrony. The MSpeed was 35 - 70 fps faster than the Pro Chrony.
Bottom line is that I can't really believe any of the velocities at this point in time, and desperately hoping that the new V2 Magneto Speed turns up.
Then hoping that if I courier it down to Rod Davies, he might kindly use it to compare some "right on the muzzle" velocities which he would share.

Post by **AlanF** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 10:05 am

Tony,

I would ignore the velocities until the chronograph issue is sorted. Most ladder testing is done without a chrony anyway.

If it makes you feel better, I have two CED M2s with IR screens and am struggling to get them to agree with each other let alone the F1 Chrony. I set them up in series, and must have fired about 50 shots so far. I have to alter the factory spacings of the IR emitters and receivers to get them to agree, then I get signal strength failures etc.

I'll get there in the end, but I wouldn't recommend the CEDs to anyone.

Alan

Brad Y · Post by **Brad Y** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 12:17 pm

Agree with Alan here. Chronys are great tools but I dont bother with them for ladder testing. Sometimes you just have to shoot what is accurate. We shoot known ranges so the difference between 2700fps and 2800fps doesnt matter in my opinion. Put the emphasis on wind reading and you will do well.

Barry Davies · Post by **Barry Davies** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 3:30 pm

If you don't use a chronograph when ladder testing how do you know that any variation in elevation is not due to a variation in speed?
The other problem with ladder testing is only one shot is fired at each load so the assumption is made that ALL shots of that particular load are going to hit the same spot -- which in reality does not happen.

Post by **AlanF** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 3:59 pm

Barry Davies wrote:If you don't use a chronograph when ladder testing how do you know that any variation in elevation is not due to a variation in speed?

You don't. But you can still get useful information, particularly if you're reasonably confident (from other sources of information) of having a low ES with the powder/primer/cartridge combination being tested.

Barry Davies wrote:The other problem with ladder testing is only one shot is fired at each load so the assumption is made that ALL shots of that particular load are going to hit the same spot -- which in reality does not happen.

I find that using very close powder charge increments e.g 0.1 grain, or alternatively doing more than one test over the same charge range improves reliability of the information. Its the trend that matters - not individual shots.

Alan

Barry Davies · Post by **Barry Davies** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 4:19 pm

ES can vary dramatically through a series of test loads over say 2 grains which makes 1/10 grain step rather useless. simply because 1/10 grain of 2208 ( for example ) is worth ( on average ) 6 to 8 F/s change in the average speed, but the average speed of any load could be subject to a variation of 15 /20 F/s .
This means that you will get an overlapping of speeds probably through a load variation of 3 or 4 tenths -- so to see any trend due to load variation MANY shots would need to be fired.
It's a bit like standard deviation --it does'nt mean much unless a great number of shots are fired ( like 100 )
This is plainly evident in the test figures in post #1 where 54.2 gn gave 2737 and 0.3 gn more at 54.5 gave 2721-- 16 f/s slower for 3/10 more --so what does that prove? and are the derived results reliable? Then a further 3/10 gives over 40 f/s less ???

Post by **AlanF** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 4:28 pm

Barry Davies wrote:ES can vary dramatically through a series of test loads over say 2 grains which makes 1/10 grain step rather useless. simply because 1/10 grain of 2208 ( for example ) is worth ( on average ) 6 to 8 F/s change in the average speed, but the average speed of any load could be subject to a variation of 15 /20 F/s .
This means that you will get an overlapping of speeds probably through a load variation of 3 or 4 tenths -- so to see any trend due to load variation MANY shots would need to be fired.
It's a bit like standard deviation --it does'nt mean much unless a great number of shots are fired ( like 100 )

That's exactly what I'm getting at Barry - the more shots that are fired the more reliable the information. The same goes for groups.