Has anyone tried or is using air rams to operate the targets in their clubs or seen any system such as this in use?
We have cantilever style target frames but due to; age and physical abilities of some members, and need the heavily counterweight frame if the wind is blowing from behind the target, our club is looking for alternatives.
Thanks, Bart
Air operated target frames?
Moderator: Mod
A lovely set of air actuators sitting idle (disconnected) at the Atherton Range on cantilever frames. - No idea what the issue was.
I always liked the idea of pressing a button to retract and then having the return on an adjustable timer -with an override of course for hard to locate shots. With practice the timers can be wound down.
e.g. Perhaps a foot button to activate timer - say close electrical circuit for 10 seconds. In combination with a safety stop button (twist and reset) to keep the circuit closed if needed.
I always liked the idea of pressing a button to retract and then having the return on an adjustable timer -with an override of course for hard to locate shots. With practice the timers can be wound down.
e.g. Perhaps a foot button to activate timer - say close electrical circuit for 10 seconds. In combination with a safety stop button (twist and reset) to keep the circuit closed if needed.
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pjifl
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Re Atherton, the air cylinders were never used as actuators.
Rather as buffers and or devices to slow down the target frame movement because the frames are incredibly heavy and can thump down onto the cement floor dangerously.
Early on they were disconnected and a rubber buffer substituted.
My feeling is that unless they are adjusted exactly for force and limit position they do more harm than good in this role.
Proper air actuators would be complex. No doubt it could be done. But it would require ongoing maintenance and adjustment.
Peter Smith.
Rather as buffers and or devices to slow down the target frame movement because the frames are incredibly heavy and can thump down onto the cement floor dangerously.
Early on they were disconnected and a rubber buffer substituted.
My feeling is that unless they are adjusted exactly for force and limit position they do more harm than good in this role.
Proper air actuators would be complex. No doubt it could be done. But it would require ongoing maintenance and adjustment.
Peter Smith.
Yes I can understand the frustration with maintenance. I have a couple of air actuated grading machines here (up to 30 cylinders in each system) and would require a long tune up every morning (of speed and dampening/buffering) before starting and often one or two breakdowns during the day. It was hard to train staff to do correctly so would fall back on one person every day - a fine line between too slow and smashing gates.
The dampening in particular is fiddly and any moisture plays havoc with the small valves in small systems - super dry air was critical. I guess because air is compressible and rams can suddenly move quickly when they start to go it is hard to tune up for correct operation compared to non-compressible hydraulic fluids (although faster). Variable friction in each ram is also a trick.
Some skills and constant monitoring are required - but a fun project nonetheless.
The dampening in particular is fiddly and any moisture plays havoc with the small valves in small systems - super dry air was critical. I guess because air is compressible and rams can suddenly move quickly when they start to go it is hard to tune up for correct operation compared to non-compressible hydraulic fluids (although faster). Variable friction in each ram is also a trick.
Some skills and constant monitoring are required - but a fun project nonetheless.
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aaronraad
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Is there any benefit to using a spring-balance or pair of them, or does this just achieve the same effect as the counter weight in practical terms?
Be careful what you aim for, you might hit it! Antipodean Industrial - Home of the G7L projectiles
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Razer
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Just a thought, no idea on a cost, but, why not hydraulic, similar to the linkage on a farm tractor?
One hydraulic pump, hoses, actuating mechanism (ram) with a lever at each target for lifting/lowering, again as like tractor linkage.
Another thought is gas struts as per car bonnets, pop-top caravan roofs, etc. which are designed to assist lift.
One hydraulic pump, hoses, actuating mechanism (ram) with a lever at each target for lifting/lowering, again as like tractor linkage.
Another thought is gas struts as per car bonnets, pop-top caravan roofs, etc. which are designed to assist lift.
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Barry Davies
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Grafton (NSW ) have air actuated targets (4 )
A petrol driven Compressor supplies compressed air.
A two way actuator mounted on each target supporting frame supplies air to cylinders for up and down. Takes around 4 or 5 seconds to lower target and about the same to raise.
Ken Larkin ( lives at Maclean ) is the man to talk to.
A petrol driven Compressor supplies compressed air.
A two way actuator mounted on each target supporting frame supplies air to cylinders for up and down. Takes around 4 or 5 seconds to lower target and about the same to raise.
Ken Larkin ( lives at Maclean ) is the man to talk to.
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pjifl
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If anyone is looking at a target system from scratch, then you should be comparing with the best simple system.
In my mind, this will involve lightweight targets and frames and roller or ball bearings everywhere for counterweight axles and guides. These work very well.
Some effort could be saved by using a rope attached to the frame to yank it down. And having a reliable air bufferdamper at the limits of up and down.
I suspect that human power can beat any air system unless the air system uses a lot of air and big rams. But helping older markers is a worthwhile goal.
Peter Smith.
In my mind, this will involve lightweight targets and frames and roller or ball bearings everywhere for counterweight axles and guides. These work very well.
Some effort could be saved by using a rope attached to the frame to yank it down. And having a reliable air bufferdamper at the limits of up and down.
I suspect that human power can beat any air system unless the air system uses a lot of air and big rams. But helping older markers is a worthwhile goal.
Peter Smith.
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pjifl
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I have taken the liberty of copying two posts from another List because I think they are both revealing. I will inform the original authors.
Peter Smith.
===============================================
At Bisley, long ago, when competitor marking was first introduced, senior members of the Bisley Establishment found themselves in the Stickledown Butts, possibly for the first time, having to mark on 70 year old frames.
Shortly thereafter Alastair Brown and myself were charged with the task of investigating schemes for mechanisation of the 10x6 target frames. It soon became clear that the first requirement was new, properly engineered frames. Pointless hoping to do anything on the existing primitive clapped-out relics.
The following year we had the prototype new frame, complete with air actuation, set up behind the 1200 firing point for demo. purposes, conveniently located for air supply from the Cheylesmore Range turning targets air compressor.
Two things rapidly became apparant. First that mechanical actuation introduced significant H&S hazards (fingers, arms etc.!), and second that properly constructed (& maintained) target frames can be remarkably easy to operate, even if of monster Stickledown size.
The outcome was a refit of the Stickledown butts with the redesigned frames - manually operated. Since we're never allowed down to the far end thesedays, who knows what state the frames are in after 40 years.
Given the cost and complication of providing an air supply, let alone the problem of designing out the hazard issues, I'd guess the best all-round, and probably most cost-effective, current solution is electronic targetry.
AllanC-S
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Allan,
Paul mention a cantilever system, not a guillotine one a la Bisley.
Effectively operating a guillotine chain system would create a big risk; but in the case of a cantilever frame, the mechanism could be placed well out of reach.
An other solution would consist in using small pneumatic chain hoists?They have a rotary motor, reversible rotation and lfting capacity can be regulated by air pressure to be just sufficient to operate the machanism?
An other advantage: they have an internal brake to maintain the psition.....
If my memory serves well they exist from 100 kgs max capacity and are relatively inexpensive.
Amicalmement
RpRp (Robert Chombart)
=============================================
Peter Smith.
===============================================
At Bisley, long ago, when competitor marking was first introduced, senior members of the Bisley Establishment found themselves in the Stickledown Butts, possibly for the first time, having to mark on 70 year old frames.
Shortly thereafter Alastair Brown and myself were charged with the task of investigating schemes for mechanisation of the 10x6 target frames. It soon became clear that the first requirement was new, properly engineered frames. Pointless hoping to do anything on the existing primitive clapped-out relics.
The following year we had the prototype new frame, complete with air actuation, set up behind the 1200 firing point for demo. purposes, conveniently located for air supply from the Cheylesmore Range turning targets air compressor.
Two things rapidly became apparant. First that mechanical actuation introduced significant H&S hazards (fingers, arms etc.!), and second that properly constructed (& maintained) target frames can be remarkably easy to operate, even if of monster Stickledown size.
The outcome was a refit of the Stickledown butts with the redesigned frames - manually operated. Since we're never allowed down to the far end thesedays, who knows what state the frames are in after 40 years.
Given the cost and complication of providing an air supply, let alone the problem of designing out the hazard issues, I'd guess the best all-round, and probably most cost-effective, current solution is electronic targetry.
AllanC-S
=========================================
Allan,
Paul mention a cantilever system, not a guillotine one a la Bisley.
Effectively operating a guillotine chain system would create a big risk; but in the case of a cantilever frame, the mechanism could be placed well out of reach.
An other solution would consist in using small pneumatic chain hoists?They have a rotary motor, reversible rotation and lfting capacity can be regulated by air pressure to be just sufficient to operate the machanism?
An other advantage: they have an internal brake to maintain the psition.....
If my memory serves well they exist from 100 kgs max capacity and are relatively inexpensive.
Amicalmement
RpRp (Robert Chombart)
=============================================
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Tim N
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Hey Sambo,
We have electronic targets, I'm just looking at options to leave them set up securely and weather proof but they will still need to be raised and lowered.
We share our range with others and packing them away is a pain
We have electronic targets, I'm just looking at options to leave them set up securely and weather proof but they will still need to be raised and lowered.
We share our range with others and packing them away is a pain
We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training. Archilochos 680-645 BC
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