Cut or button barrels.

[bsouthernau]

Your comment is very good about paying for what you get as well. You do get what you pay for.

When your luck's in!! It's certainly rare to get more than you paid for.

[Razer]

Serious question.
Why is it that we only get to choose between cut and buttoned barrels when we want target barrels?

Reason I ask this is because I have some Sako rifles with cold hammer forged barrels which are not only fantastically accurate, but also seem to have outstanding wear characteristics. I have a 1958 barrel in .243W that has had well over 10,000 rounds through it and it still holds a really tight group, even with hunting hand loads.

I believe that the Australian Army Steyr, know as the Lithgow F88 has a hammer forged barrel, as does the new hunting rifle know as the Cross-over, which are also made in Thales Lithgow Factory.

What is the reason we do not appear to have a supplier of cold hammer forged target rifle barrels?

Just curious.

[aaronraad]

Serious question.
Why is it that we only get to choose between cut and buttoned barrels when we want target barrels?

Reason I ask this is because I have some Sako rifles with cold hammer forged barrels which are not only fantastically accurate, but also seem to have outstanding wear characteristics. I have a 1958 barrel in .243W that has had well over 10,000 rounds through it and it still holds a really tight group, even with hunting hand loads.

I believe that the Australian Army Steyr, know as the Lithgow F88 has a hammer forged barrel, as does the new hunting rifle know as the Cross-over, which are also made in Thales Lithgow Factory.

What is the reason we do not appear to have a supplier of cold hammer forged target rifle barrels?

Just curious.

The cost of machinery and tooling pretty much requires very high volumes runs to be viable.

The chamber and the rifling are typically completed with the same tool in the same machine, staring with the rifling and finishing with the chamber. Once you add all the twisted, chambers (tight/SAAMI spec etc) and cartridges all together, you get some idea of the total number of combinations you require.

[williada]

Aaron is right, they are expensive bits of kit although they can spit a barrel out quickly they require volume sales to be economic. However, as far as target shooting is concerned they suffer from the radial stresses from the process and over long strings the barrel walking will become evident. Great for first shot kills in the field, and they have hard finishes which are less likely to wear. These barrels have to be honed to a very fine finish before the mandrel is introduced, so fouling is not an issue either. They are made in chrome moly because that material is malleable unlike stainless which work hardens. Like buttoned barrels which can suffer from work hardening during manufacturing processes the hammer forged is unsuited to stainless, but more so. The beauty of stainless, is that it can be lapped up beautifully to tolerance, and unlike chrome moly, if the stainless is run in properly it will burnish the lands or work harden them so that they are so much easier to clean and are less likely to foul.

I have discussed running in stainless before. It is much more than firing a few shots until the blue of copper no longer appears which is really knocking off the chamber reamer marks in the leed to a great extent. Clean your barrel regularly for 100 rounds until it is worked in. David.

[johnk]

Hammered barrels can be cute when they get old. Back a decade or three, maybe 4, I shot a Parker Hale target rifle with a hammer forged barrel. The bugger let go over a string of 12 shots, the surface cracking & chipping out through most of its length, while the grouping went from MOA to minute of target - just.

[williada]

John, as Gomer pile would say, "Surprise, ... surprise. David.

[Razer]

The reason that I posted re: cold hammer forged barrels was it was my belief that they are definitely available in stainless steel as a laminated stocked Sako 75 Varmint in 308W that I owned was stainless and I often, in 2002 I used this rifle to shoot FS for fun and it had no problem with 2 x 12 shot stages, with no loss of accuracy. Range time was mainly to keep up shooting skills for pig hunting(and, yes, it was bloody heavy to carry around).
I never have had barrel walking, or any running in problems, in any of my SS Sako's which may be due to the quality of the rifle as reflected by the initial cost.

So why not are cold hammer forge stainless steel barrels available in SS as it is obviously superior to chrome/moly and the demand for .30 calibre would be great enough to warrant some initial set up costs:?:
Chamber specs and calibre would then only need a mandrel change.

Specifications here; https://www.sako.fi/pdf/specs/75Varmint ... inless.pdf

[williada]

Ray, the context of the stainless comment with regard to hammer forged barrels is a general statement and a lot of barrel makers would shy off the process for the reasons given. No doubt Sako have the resources to produce a fine product and I owned one in .375 but chrome moly. But having worked with stainless nearly 30 years ago and having certification issues then, nothing seems to have changed given the problems that Frank has discussed. You have to appreciate it is very tricky at times and hammer forging stainless is trickier than button rifling it due to its characteristics. The other major hammer forgers such as Lothar Walther and a French mob turn out chrome moly barrels for good reason. The have large economies of scale as there are relatively few barrel makers in Europe compared to the States and Australia. Its only a personal view, but I think I would opt for a cut stainless barrel rather than a hammer forged one based on the much higher probability of being stress free. Regards, David.

[Razer]

Thank you for your replies David. You have answered my questions and put my curiosity to rest.
I still think Sako are the epitome of hunting rifles and they have kept the bar very high for a long time and, that is why I was interested in the fact that they hammer forge their barrels, which includes stainless steel.
Ray.

[Frank Green]

Serious question.
Why is it that we only get to choose between cut and buttoned barrels when we want target barrels?

Reason I ask this is because I have some Sako rifles with cold hammer forged barrels which are not only fantastically accurate, but also seem to have outstanding wear characteristics. I have a 1958 barrel in .243W that has had well over 10,000 rounds through it and it still holds a really tight group, even with hunting hand loads.

I believe that the Australian Army Steyr, know as the Lithgow F88 has a hammer forged barrel, as does the new hunting rifle know as the Cross-over, which are also made in Thales Lithgow Factory.

What is the reason we do not appear to have a supplier of cold hammer forged target rifle barrels?

Just curious.

One reason is a hammer forging machine is very expensive. Usually the only ones that own one are Gov't or big manufacturers. They are doing huge volumes with little to no options on calibers and twist etc.....When they set up and make a run of barrels for X gun etc...theyr'e going to make thousands at a time. Even with that being said most manufacturers that do have hammer forging equipment also make button barrels as well. Ruger and Remington being an example.

Same thing applies with hammer forge barrels. You can get some that shoot extremely well and others that are so so. It's meant for high volume/high production in a short amount of time.

I will say this as well. Remingtons PSR rifle that they won the new contract with has our barrels on it. The factory hammer forged barrels would not shoot as well as ours. Also another manufacturer that is going after the new sniper rifle contract (AR10 type guns) also make hammer forged barrels but they're factory produced barrels shot groups approx. double what ours did. It's a big name maker and at this time I cannot say who. The accuracy testing and barrel life testing was just completed this week. They're guns with our barrels smoked every other competitor that showed up.

Goes back to what I said in a earlier post. One you get what you pay for. Two all the processes that are out there can make a very good barrel. It's up to the maker to pay attention to what they are doing etc....

I've seen hammer forged barrels that shot extremely well but quite shooting with no apparent warning etc...this to me goes back to the hammer forging process induces a lot of stress into the steel as well. Also the mandrels will wear and change over time being used. I know one maker over here about a year go completely stopped all production on .30cal. barrels. They could no longer hold size due to the mandrel wearing out etc....

I know Ruger does make hammer forged barrels in s.s. but to what extent in what caliber I don't know. I do know they make them on the 10/22T in .22rf. S.S. but also is the s.s. grade they use the same as the button barrels or barrel steel what we use? I don't know off hand.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

[Seddo]

Crane use a Lilja barrel in the Mk13 Mod5 & Mod7 they supply to the Navy.

[Frank Green]

Crane use a Lilja barrel in the Mk13 Mod5 & Mod7 they supply to the Navy.

Not on everything!

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

[williada]

Can we put some reality into the discussion. We are talking about extreme accuracy that is consistent and used for the purpose of target shooting at long range by civilians. F class shooters are not shooting rimfire which can get away with soft steel, nor are they limited by the cost accountants pen in a military organisation or a government policy. Some might be motivated by sprukers, or spin merchants. The military application on laying fire on a target is completely different and particularly the Navy. Having shot against a few military teams myself and been involved with the development of some of their members in the past, and they were specialists, the overall organisational needs of the armed services had lower standards and were different. In the few teams matches at Williamstown, the service teams taken from local bases were always beaten by local club members and once we used their equipment and beat them with their own gear.

So I don't think this is a Holden/Ford debate, because its too superficial, and book knowledge by itself pails into insignificance with the years of experience, the failures as well as successes, of people who have worked in the industry at the coal face and who also shoot competitively.

It just makes me shake my head when someone like Frank who willingly shares his knowledge as a professional is queried because, "Oils ain't oils, Sol". I'm also certain someone with this knowledge would not put it out there without due consideration. David.

[David B]

Can we put some reality into the discussion. We are talking about extreme accuracy that is consistent and used for the purpose of target shooting at long range by civilians. F class shooters are not shooting rimfire which can get away with soft steel, nor are they limited by the cost accountants pen in a military organisation or a government policy. Some might be motivated by sprukers, or spin merchants. The military application on laying fire on a target is completely different and particularly the Navy. Having shot against a few military teams myself and been involved with the development of some of their members in the past, and they were specialists, the overall organisational needs of the armed services had lower standards and were different. In the few teams matches at Williamstown, the service teams taken from local bases were always beaten by local club members and once we used their equipment and beat them with their own gear.

So I don't think this is a Holden/Ford debate, because its too superficial, and book knowledge by itself pails into insignificance with the years of experience, the failures as well as successes, of people who have worked in the industry at the coal face and who also shoot competitively.

It just makes me shake my head when someone like Frank who willingly shares his knowledge as a professional is queried because, "Oils ain't oils, Sol". I'm also certain someone with this knowledge would not put it out there without due consideration. David.

Can't see any issue with any one being queried, and there should be no exceptions. People will make comments, some times not very helpful or smart... but they have the right to ask

[AlanF]

My attitude to barrels is that you can be lucky or unlucky with any brand regardless of cut or button rifling. But brand is the most important indicator of the quality of the product i.e. with some brands you have a better chance of getting a good one. Its a pity we don't see more equipment lists in F-Class - particularly in the US where availability of all the brands is not so much of a problem. A quick look at the barrel brands of the leading shooters is worthwhile.