new reloading equipment, good scales or new press?

[bern]

Hi all, I shoot f-class up in central queensland at raglan and I'm having trouble deciding on some new purchases. I shoot a 6br and load with a redding type s neck die and std seater on an old lee 50th anniversary loading press. I talked the missus into some funds for a forster coax press for my birthday and have a bit more then that as I've been saving aswell. I want make better ammo and I'm not sure how much a flash press will help compared to other things I could get, I load with a chargemaster at the moment and I'm wondering if I should get some lab scales like the a&d fxi-120 or 300. From what I've read the scales would be alot more accurate then my current chargemaster. Should I go the press or the new scales, or is there other stuff that I should focus on(arbour press and wilson dies, neck turning gear, concentricity gauges etc).

[AlanF]

Bern,

With the sort of money you seem have for the upgrade, I would go arbor press and Wilson neck sizer and seater with micrometer top, and get a Redding or RCBS beam scale. That should improve the quality of your ammunition in several ways, and hence give a good return on investment. Neck turning is unlikely to give as good a return. Be aware that a lot of miscellaneous tools and measurement devices are only there for those of us who must have everything - they don't necessarily improve your scores!

Alan

[shooter mcreid]

Hey bern,
It's very hard to say where you will get the most gains from unless you are aware of a specific issue. If your old press doesn't introduce any inconsistencies then getting a Forster probably won't equate to better scores, they are however nice and quick to use. I also got better scales which seems to have cut my powder throwing extreme spread from about 0.4gr (chargemaster) to 0.10gr or less (ohaus pa213) over 50 rounds or so. I did see a slight improvement but at a high cost and only at longer ranges. In other words it is possible that there is no one thing that will give you instant gains however the summation of many small things. Another option which might suit your situation is trimming and pointing your projectiles, 6mm bullets are meant to see the best gains in bc and at the same time the maplat consistency should improve. The returns of this process is dependant on the quality of the batch of projectiles you start with. My 6mm experience is very limited so someone else might like to give their opinion. I just read Alan's comment and of course it's excellent advice. It's also a good idea to borrow whatever you choose and test before you purchase, this is not always possible though.
Good luck with it.

[saum2]

Bern,
I agree what what the other guys are writing. Why do you want another press or loading gear?? Is it producing misaligned ammo. The BR will shoot dots on a good day without question with the right set up & load. If it is broken, ok then buy good gear to replace it. A friend of mine has a BR that shoots 60's all day loaded from a Chargemaster and Redding dies. Perhaps trialling different powder/loads or projectiles, jump or jam might give you better results.
Try a rolled up piece of paper in the dispensing tube of the CM to reduce error in powder loads, i do and it works.
Do a search on this forum for BR loads, the info found may help you with better scores than buying fancy gear.
Geoff

[bern]

My loads seem ok in close i think, out further they need tightening, which I know is more due to the speed at which the br can get them out there. I used to work in a lab and scales are something I think can be very finicky, mainly repeatability. Mainly while I can I want to get set up gear wise for many years to come because who knows what I'll be able to afford a few years down the track. I currently don't have a chrony and I would like one, but due to time constraints I don't get much load testing time. I figure if I get my loading gear up there it will eliminate inconsistency's in process and give me more confidence that my loads good and its the wind that's stuffing me around. I have shot a 60 with this load at 500 or 600 in great conditions. Scales I won't get another chance at getting for a long time, although beam scales( I've never used any) are a much economical alternative.

[shooter mcreid]

What size groups are you getting at different ranges if you don't mind me asking?
If your happy with your short range groups but not your longs you could always put your cash towards a new barrel possibly chambered in one of the 7mms.

[bern]

I'm not really sure about different ranges my load was 30.8 ar2208 but is now 30.0 grains, they group is touching each other at 100 m and under and inch at 200 m. As for further out I don't really know, you have to get to the range pretty early to get no mirage for grps at longer ranges out my way

[BATattack]

Very good question to ask mate!

I'm all for buying good gear "buy once cry once" but something that may save you some money is doing some testing.

Does someone near you have a set of lab scales? How about measuring what your charge master dispenses against the lab scales onto see how bad or good the error is? Checking mine that has the drinking straw mod i get a MAX of .14gr and 90% of the time it will be under .1gr.

Also see if you can find someone with a concentricy gage and measure the runout of your sized cases then your loaded rounds to see if the issues are coming from your press.

Those tests might help you decide where to spend your money but both of those things you mentioned are good pieces of foundation equipment that should be good quality as you'll use them for every bullet for a lifetime!

My money would probably go on scales first then a press and dies later. As long as your can prove the press isn't the major issue now.

[DMC]

Bern,

With the sort of money you seem have for the upgrade, I would go arbor press and Wilson neck sizer and seater with micrometer top, and get a Redding or RCBS beam scale. That should improve the quality of your ammunition in several ways, and hence give a good return on investment. Neck turning is unlikely to give as good a return. Be aware that a lot of miscellaneous tools and measurement devices are only there for those of us who must have everything - they don't necessarily improve your scores!

Alan

Exactly what i did, I had the RCBS Chargemaster and all the bits, but went back to a simple Wilson seater with a Sinclair micrometer top, Arbour press and beam scale
still its nice to have to other bits, but in my case they didnt load any better !

[plumbs7]

Hi Mate, you really need a magspeed chrony. Without it you are in the dark. I would be betting that there is a bit of extreme spread happening if the loads are shooting better closer up. But how do u know without a chrony u won't know . T Berry ( ecomeat ) did a wonderful article with Wilaidia on positive compensation . Very complex subject and if u can find the thread good reading. But it showed how tuning a load with a chrony can be of great benifet !

You need to have a max extreme spread no greater than 15 Fps over at least 5 shots with a ragged hole at 100 m with 140m the optimum to allow vld bullets to go to sleep. Then you can tune your loads with the chrony and test seat depth too!

I must be lucky as my Rcbs charge master with the Maccas straw mod works very well! I would stick with it as I get about a 10 Fps spread over 5 shots ! ...??? Ain't broke don't change it!

Maybe something that's a good thing is a sinclair case runout tool only about $120 and it checks how good ur reloading gear is doing it . If it's under 0- 2 thou all good no need to look further at your gear.

Another good sinclair product is a sinclair inside flash hole chamferer and neck pilot ! This helps give even ignition and thus better extreme spread .
With Lap brass I've given up neck turning except with tight necks (because I have too). No noticeable difference neck turning.

In summation , a chrony and load development is very important . There's also plenty of good avice above too from some very respected shooters in the above posts !
Hope it helps . Graham .

[bern]

Thanks for your replies guys, I have gone with an arbor press, wilson dies(will be great for seating depth with the micrometer top) and also I am going to order a chronograph so i can do better load testing to bring my groups in a bit. Down the track I will look in to a bullet pointing die and also some neck turning gear when i get my 284 win barrel sorted.