Primer differences

Nathan P · Post by **Nathan P** » Mon May 12, 2014 6:49 am

Hi all
Up until recently I have been running cci 450s in both my 223 and 308 for FS with pretty good results, this past weekend I shot a 60.5 at 500yds with the 223 but only just sneaking in a couple of 6s at 6 o'clock, this led me to doing a bit of testing at 100yds the next day to see if I could get rid of tiny bit of vertical I had going on, I shot about half dozen groups with cci 450s, BR4s and federal 205s with the federals showing a near perfect flat line of 5 shots while the CCIs were showing around 1 inch of elevation

Load was 25.4gr of 2208 behind 80gr berger VLD in lapua cases out of a Barnard and kriger barrel

Just curious on people's thoughts and if anyone has found the same thing

Cheers

Quick · Post by **Quick** » Mon May 12, 2014 9:16 am

Nathan,

Brett B here just swapped back to Fed 205 and dropped his load to 25.2 2208 I think with the 80gr Fullbore and his 223 shoots flat as a tack!!!! My 12T 223 shoots flat as with 2206H and Fed 205 Match with 55gr Noslers.

BRETT B · Post by **BRETT B** » Mon May 12, 2014 9:19 am

Nathan , i did some similar testing with my 223 with the same load and Berger 80.5 and found the CCI gave some vert at long range too. I got rid of it by going back to straight 25 gn 2208!! I then went to FED gold medal match 205 and 25.4 and it shoots super flat with no vert so i stuck with that. Could be the 450 is a bit too strong for the little 223 load..

Brad Y · Post by **Brad Y** » Mon May 12, 2014 10:49 am

People use the CCI450 because it has a strong cup and wont pierce as easily. However its still a magnum primer. In most cases, small rifle primers arent igniting magnum cases or magnum powders so I dont believe the need is there for a hot spark plug. They have an application in 308 palma cases as its alot of powder to ignite for a small rifle primer but aside from that I think they are over used a lot.

Post by **AlanF** » Mon May 12, 2014 1:38 pm

I don't think 5 shot groups are enough. That doesn't mean your findings are wrong, just that you should probably do more testing, particularly with the Federals to confirm they are better.

CCI 450s seem to be the most popular in 6mm, but as already mentioned, they may be too hot for the 223.

ecomeat · Post by **ecomeat** » Mon May 12, 2014 6:54 pm

I was using BR4s with 2209 in my first 6 x 47 Lapua barrel pushing 105 gr VLDs, and using 450 Mags with 2208 in a 6.5 x 47 pushing 130 gr Bergers.
I posted something on here mentioning the loads, and Dave Mac pointed out that I had it "arse about", as most people used them the other way around.
Trying Dave's suggestion of using the hotter primer with the faster powder cut my 6.5 x 47 vertical to approx one third of what it was. I would still have the targets somewhere.
The 6 x 47 with 2209 and 105 gr Bergers also tightened up the groups, but it wasn't quite as spectacular as the 6.5 x 47
I reckon you should try the 450s with 2208 again, and as per Alan's suggestion try for 10 or even 15 shot groups. Few people in this country have Dave's level of ballistic competence

Nathan P · Post by **Nathan P** » Mon May 12, 2014 7:05 pm

Thanks guys!

I've got some more 205s and some 205m today an will try them out in some 12 shot matches on the weekend an see what happens

Fergus Bailey · Post by **Fergus Bailey** » Tue May 13, 2014 7:49 am

Nathan P wrote:
I've got some more 205s and some 205m today an will try them out in some 12 shot matches on the weekend an see what happens

Any variance you see between the 205 and 205M will be purely coincidental, or at least environmental, as the 205/205M are identical primers. The 205M is just a sorting process from the normal 205 production. I have never known anyone in BR to be able to tell any difference, and many BR competitors simply use the 205.

DaveMc · Post by **DaveMc** » Tue May 13, 2014 8:13 am

ecomeat wrote:I was using BR4s with 2209 in my first 6 x 47 Lapua barrel pushing 105 gr VLDs, and using 450 Mags with 2208 in a 6.5 x 47 pushing 130 gr Bergers.
I posted something on here mentioning the loads, and Dave Mac pointed out that I had it "arse about", as most people used them the other way around.
Trying Dave's suggestion of using the hotter primer with the faster powder cut my 6.5 x 47 vertical to approx one third of what it was. I would still have the targets somewhere.
The 6 x 47 with 2209 and 105 gr Bergers also tightened up the groups, but it wasn't quite as spectacular as the 6.5 x 47
I reckon you should try the 450s with 2208 again, and as per Alan's suggestion try for 10 or even 15 shot groups. Few people in this country have Dave's level of ballistic competence

.

Thanks for the wrap Tony - - Still a little arse about though.
(not sure it is overly deserved and very little 223 experience but some general comments).

I would try the BR4's or 400's (not 450's), wolf primers (PMC??) and 205's/205M. The general consensus is to get the minimum spark power to still give you adequate ignition. In a small case like the 223 with a fast powder (2208 or 06H, or BR ball powders) then theoretically you should be looking for a mild ignition. Of course sometimes the mag primers do work but you must rely on consistent good batches of primers with very little variation.

Batches of primers do vary in their consistency so be careful not to rely on one test. One batch might be average and the next time you test they might sing....???? It can also simply be out of tune.- Especially when doing 5 shot groups as Alan suggested (hard to get a true answer.) There is nothing wrong with doing a 5 shot test (with good results) and then seeing how it performs on the range though. If it continues to hold good elevation then job is done.

Small cases, fast powders = softer primers.
Bigger cases, slower powders = bigger or magnum primers (esp in cold weather).

KHGS · Post by **KHGS** » Tue May 13, 2014 6:07 pm

During my years of 223 shooting I found RWS to be best for me. The Russian primers are very soft in the cup as are Federal & so are prone to "blanking". CCI are good in the cup, but do not always give the best velocity spreads. I found Remington 7 1/2's to be prone to misfiring & also seem to be undersized.
None of these "findings" were the result of any indepth testing, just what I observed with my personal use.
Keith H.

Nathan P · Post by **Nathan P** » Tue May 13, 2014 8:23 pm

I've got some 400s somewhere I think ill give them a crack as well!
Thanks again everyone, this forum is the bees knees!!

johnk · Post by **johnk** » Tue May 13, 2014 9:02 pm

Maybe have a look at German Salazar's web site some time. He has something of a rep for primers - among other things: http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com.au/

Fergus Bailey · Post by **Fergus Bailey** » Wed May 14, 2014 10:42 am

KHGS wrote:The Russian primers are very soft in the cup as are Federal & so are prone to "blanking".

In my experience (FWIW), blanking is more a function of the firing pin hole size than the primer cup itself. I have run many thousands of Fed 205/m primers in some pretty hot 6PPC loads. The only time I ever blanked a primer was admittedly with a 205M, but it was a bigger firing pin hole on a BR action. Everything I have ever shot with a 68 thou or smaller firing pin hole (and a well fitted firing pin) has been fine.

I also had a fullbore action that was showing significant primer cratering on relatively light loads. The firing pin hole was BIG, so I had it bushed to better fit the firing pin, and I never had a problem with "pressure signs" from loads shot in that action again.

KHGS · Post by **KHGS** » Wed May 14, 2014 11:01 am

Fergus Bailey wrote:
KHGS wrote:The Russian primers are very soft in the cup as are Federal & so are prone to "blanking".

In my experience (FWIW), blanking is more a function of the firing pin hole size than the primer cup itself. I have run many thousands of Fed 205/m primers in some pretty hot 6PPC loads. The only time I ever blanked a primer was admittedly with a 205M, but it was a bigger firing pin hole on a BR action. Everything I have ever shot with a 68 thou or smaller firing pin hole (and a well fitted firing pin) has been fine.

I also had a fullbore action that was showing significant primer cratering on relatively light loads. The firing pin hole was BIG, so I had it bushed to better fit the firing pin, and I never had a problem with "pressure signs" from loads shot in that action again.

Exactly what I meant (I did say prone to blank). In fullbore & to a lesser extent F class there are often actions of dubious quality as far as firing pin & firing pin holes are concerned in use, to this end what I said does apply. I was not referring to the bench rest form of shooting where all actions used would be in the higher quality order.
Keith H.

Nathan P · Post by **Nathan P** » Sat May 24, 2014 7:06 pm

Got a chance to give both the 223 and 308 barrels a run over 5 ranges at Campbell town today the both held x ring elevation over every range with the 223 posting a 60.7 at 300 save to say the federals were the way to go,, the 450s still had their place in the 308 Palma cases posting a 59.5 at 700yds thanks again for everyone's input!