why are the brits

[bruce moulds]

so clearly superior as long range shooters?
i believe that it is due to the fact that they come from a culture of bisley style shooting. they have to learn to read the wind for every shot.
at brisbane their results are to be applauded.
they rule palma world wide.
their fclass shooters just gave the americans a hammering in britain.
not sure how the south africans do it, but they have been known to hammer the americans as well, using their 7mm tombi with 168 bergers. this cartridge is very similar to the 7x57 ackley, and on paper was inferior to the 6.5 /284 used by the americans. apparrently it was lack of elevation and superior wind reading that did it for them.
should we consider bisley style more seriously.
bruce.

[AlanF]

...7mm tombi with 168 bergers...

Are you sure it was Bergers? I took an interest in it at the time, and had it in my head that it was 168 SMKs?

BTW I agree with you re: the Poms and Bisley style. And I get the impression they have have a very well-oiled team shooting system using the rules to the max.

Alan

[bruce moulds]

hi alan,
you could be right about the bullets.
i have been conversing with a south african guy, and have been so preoccupied with the case design that i forgot to ask about the bullet.
if it was the sierra, then that made their package even more inferior to the 6.5/284 on paper.
they refer to the 180 berger vld as a "real b*ll tearer" of a bullet due to its tendancy to offer the odd flyer.
there seem to be some shooters in oz who secretly prefer 168 gn 7mm bullets in 7mm, and the ones i know of are competitors to respect.
the cartridge i referred to above is the tombi mark 1, and is formed from the 8x57, apparrently giving a slightly longer neck than when using 7x57 brass.
the mark 2 version is formed from 30/06 brass, with the improved shoulder pushed back, giving optimized powder capacity for their local powder, and a neck length of about 0.350" after trimming.
for really bad conditions they have some form of the 8x68 necked to 7mm, but don't like its recoil.
different strokes for different folks.
bruce.

[Southcape]

South Africa also shoot Bisley style.

There certainly seems to be some merrit in the style of shooting.

Congratulations to GB, SA and USA on their top 3 placings.

[bruce moulds]

most interesting linda.
but do australians have the mental strength to dispense with ego inflating string shooting?
bruce.

[AlanF]

South Africa also shoot Bisley style.

Aha very interesting....

It makes sense - if for no other reason that you need to take a good look at the conditions EVERY shot. In string shooting you can often get by with a quick glance at the conditions or even none at all and just follow the last shot.

[AlanF]

...do australians have the mental strength to dispense with ego inflating string shooting?...

Rather than "mental strength" maybe "wisdom" is a better word, because if some of us start shooting Bisley style (I intend to keep harping on it at our range) the machine-gunners might find themselves at a skills disadvantage.

[bruce moulds]

well said alan.
the other thing would be that australia might come up in international fullbore rankings.
"fullbore" includes fclass and tr.
bruce

[Southcape]

Our club has shot Bisley style on a few occasions. Usually before a major international shoot. We have Gray in our club, so we assist with his training this way.

It is alot harder, and far more challenging than string shooting. Your focus is always on the conditions.

Much like the change to the ICFRA targets, I can see shooters complaining loudly at any change that will lower their scores. Scores would only be lowered until ones wind reading skills improved.

Personally, I am all for Bisley style shooting.

[Southcape]

South Africa is big on Berger bullets.

I went in search of some while in Brisbane, but the shelves were empty.

[bruce moulds]

linda,
i think youv'e nailed it.
australians are inclined to aspire to mediocrity.
bruce.

[bruce moulds]

alan,
there was a time when the yanks could whop british ass at long range. it was the period between 1874 and 1880 in the great creedmoor matches.
some say it was american breech loading rifles that did it, but it was really that the american shooters shared information, while the british shot as individuals.
they cleaned after each shot, so had to shoot bisley style.
it was considered ungentlemanly to wait out a condition. one looked at the flags, made a call, adjusted, and fired.
this was the beginnings of the modern method of british team shooting. they learned from their mistakes.
bruce.

[DaveMc]

I had the pleasure of scoring for Emil Praslick, watched the English team shoot a few matches and had long discussions with Jannie Els on Bisley style and wind reading skills at this world championship meeting. Emil is undoubtedly one of the best wind readers in the world (he had some elevation troubles with bipod on the grass at Brisbane but his wind calls were amazing). What was so impressive was the way these guys could look at the flags and mirage, wind on or off several minutes and just put it back in the centre, no matter what the wind did (almost). Whilst they did wait out conditions and also machine gunned too, they obviously have learnt so much more about the wind from their experiences.
Mind you they are the worlds best!

[RDavies]

linda,
i think youv'e nailed it.
australians are inclined to aspire to mediocrity.
bruce.

I dont think this is necassarily true of Australians in general, look at how we lead the world in general sporting ability on a per capita basis.

I definitley agree that too many shooters out there dont want to do anything which will lower their scores. I think if you put it to vote about doubling target sizes, plenty of shooters would love it.

I wish more clubs and prize shoots would have the occaisional Bisley Style shoot. It would sort the machine gunners with accurate guns from the wind readers and we would all learn to be better wind readers from it.

[Woody_rod]

I chat to some of the top guys in the UK about coaching and general stuff about team shooting - having an interest in same.

Having been to Bisley and shot the Queens in 2010, it was a great learning curve for me. The biggest thing was to really pay attention to the conditions, while scoring etc for the other guys.

The other thing I have noticed is the different mentality with most of the people involved with shooting in the UK. Without being too negative, it must be noted that top shooters in the UK from my experience are much more approachable and willing to impart with knowledge about the sport.

Our own so called "elite" shooters might take this as an example, and stop parading around as a different breed to the ordinary shooters like myself. I look at the current outcome from the WLRC and wonder if AU really is fielding the best team, have the proper training, understanding or attitudes needed to succeed at the top level.

Many things may be subjective in shooting, but the scoreboard never lies.

The UK guys have the teams shooting sussed, as they can shoot, read conditions AND can put it together as a team when it matters. They shoot a lot more teams matches than we do. At club level, I might get to shoot or coach maybe 2-3 times per year, where the UK guys do this a lot more.