Electronic or thrower and scales.

Brad Y · Post by **Brad Y** » Sat Jun 14, 2014 7:06 pm

Will never be sold on these things for long range accuracy loading. I know 2209 is about 3 granules per 0.1gr consistently on my scales. The unit does not. Ordering myself an omega now. Might have to get an arbor press too for the wilson seaters.

SuperV · Post by **SuperV** » Sat Jun 14, 2014 8:18 pm

Brad Y I would seat my pills with anything other then with Wilson inline system.

Seddo · Post by **Seddo** » Sat Jun 14, 2014 8:57 pm

For what I do a chargemaster is fine. I guess it comes down to how big your node is, if it can take a few grains then it doesn't matter.

aaronraad · Post by **aaronraad** » Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:41 pm

Seddo wrote:I guess it comes down to how big your node is, if it can take a few grains then it doesn't matter.

Having a large node never hurts. I listened to Jack Neary talk about feeling how 'sticky' a powder (VV-N133) charge is that he throws in the first strings on the morning of a BR shoot, compared to those later in the day and adjusting accordingly. Certainly made we want to stick to the middle of a node considering I don't get the opportunity to do load development during each shoot to suit the humidity and temperature conditions on the day.

I though the 6 videos that recorded Jack discussing Rifle Tuning were worth the time. Here is a link to the first video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SZWvn68bRU

higginsdj · Post by **higginsdj** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 7:36 am

Chargemaster accuracy - slightly off topic but I tried out my chargemaster against a GemPro 250 last night. The load I was throwing was 25.50gn. Of the 50 I threw with the chargemaster:

3 were thrown over weight (2 x 25.6 and 1 x 25.7). Of those that indicated correct weight:
18 were 25.50
17 were within the range 25.48 - 25.52
12 were within the range 24.44 - 25.56

The Hornady thrower - I gave up ufter the first 5 all threw over weight.

Just how accurate is the Gempro 250 - I won't go there just yet but I do not believe it is as accurate as the quoted +/- 0.02gn.

Cheers

David

Josh Cox · Post by **Josh Cox** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 8:33 am

David, with the hornandy, have you adjusted the trickle speed and settings, it makes the unit much more useable.

I used trickle speed .1 or .2, slow mode and circa .8 for trickle start.

pjifl · Post by **pjifl** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 8:40 am

I have never seen any electronic weighing system other than a high end Laboratory balance weigh consistently. These are expensive and require a lot of care.

A few years ago, I tried fairly cheap electronic scales and found one that was recommended as better for powder weighing. It was better but is not good enough.

When used in series with a quality balance, it shows an erratic behavior. Can be quite good for a while then drifts off sometimes by 0.3 grains. One can never predict when this will happen. So the only thing is to test frequently with a check weight. Just make check weights to match your common loads. They do not need to be spot on because they are testing for consistency rather than absolute weight.

The other curse with almost all electronic scales - whether high end ones or cheap ones - is that if weighing down to a zero as set by tareing the scales - they latch onto Zero erratically. I call it a 'Sticky Zero' This can introduce quite unacceptable errors and is insidious because one is being fooled.

Probably the most common cause of problems with mechanical scales is a worm or dirty set of knife edges. Even top end mechanical Lab scales should have their Knife Edges cleaned periodically. Once a year was recommended by Mettler.

Peter Smith.

ecomeat · Post by **ecomeat** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 9:16 am

Aaronraad published some Internet links a while back, to YouTube videos that very clearly demonstrated the difference between cheaper electronic scales (strain guage technology) versus affordable Magnetic Force Restoration Balances. I ordered my AnD120i very shortly after watching the videos.
Maybe Aaron could repost the links ?

aaronraad · Post by **aaronraad** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:09 am

ecomeat wrote:Aaronraad published some Internet links a while back, to YouTube videos that very clearly demonstrated the difference between cheaper electronic scales (strain guage technology) versus affordable Magnetic Force Restoration Balances. I ordered my AnD120i very shortly after watching the videos.
Maybe Aaron could repost the links ?

I had to borrow Dr Peabody's Wayback Machine for this one Tony! Equipment & Technical sub-forum http://ozfclass.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4285

Cambridge Environmental Products (Canada) still has the best price from what I can gather:
http://cambridgeenviro.com/productDetail.php?122g-x-0.001g-A-D-5-Year-Warranty-Top-Loading-Balance-5110; Had to be good given a price increase is still their top news story: http://cambridgeenviro.com/news-list.php

Still I've had great pricing and servicing out of San Diego Scale. Bought a +$2,500 moisture analyzer and accessories from them for my full-time job this year without a hitch. =D>

higginsdj · Post by **higginsdj** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 11:04 am

Josh Cox wrote:David, with the hornandy, have you adjusted the trickle speed and settings, it makes the unit much more useable.

I used trickle speed .1 or .2, slow mode and circa .8 for trickle start.

Yep - tried that and the unit can settle into a relatively consistant drop - but sometimes it just does not want to play. It got to the point where I had to set my drop weight to 0.2 grain under the weight I wanted then trickled up on a seperate digital scale. It was a slow, slow process (30 cases/hour). At least now I can do 50+/hr and this is with regular calibrations/weight checks with fixed test weights on both digital scales.

This is good enough for me as a TR shooter - yet to see how good it is for my wifes .223 FClass rifle.

Cheers

David

Post by **AlanF** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 2:03 pm

pjifl wrote:...Probably the most common cause of problems with mechanical scales is a worm or dirty set of knife edges. Even top end mechanical Lab scales should have their Knife Edges cleaned periodically. Once a year was recommended by Mettler.

Peter Smith.

Peter,

Is there a DIY method for doing this? (e.g. very fine emery paper)

Alan

BATattack · Post by **BATattack** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:05 pm

I managed second in last year's sa queens loading straight off the chargemaster after putting a piece of rolled up paper in the spout. Loaded 100 rounds in under and hour

Checking against a set of a&d lab scales the maximum variation I've ever seen was .14gr and is usually well under .1.

Originally i didnt trust the chargemaster but after using it for a while it made me realize that it is probably more accurate than a large proportion of balance beam scales and particularly the ones that aren't maintained to their optimum.

Josh Cox · Post by **Josh Cox** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:42 pm

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index. ... =3846088.0

pjifl · Post by **pjifl** » Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:19 am

Knife edges.

Do not forget to inspect and clean all the knife edges - including those that support the pan.

If they are in good order, use a suitable solvent. Then wipe totally dry.

Agate and jewel and ceramic knife edges and supports, if looked after, and undamaged, will need cleaning and wiping dry every so often.

Even in enclosed mechanical Lab balances, gradually some 'fallout' leaves residue on their knife edges much like the evaporation and slow fallout leaves plastic residue on glass in a new car.

Nothing more than a solvent will be needed. Some of the spray on electrical contact cleaning solvents are very suitable because they dry leaving no residue and it may be possible to use them without any dismantling of an unfamiliar mechanical Lab balance.

Many of the high end older Lab balances come with instructions about partially removing the support bridge giving access to the knife edges and their anvils. But do not blunder in without some knowledge. They are built like a Swiss watch.

Steel knives can rust. A worn, rounded knife edge with rust specs is utterly useless and will give very erratic readings. Tiny granules of rust on the knives are very detrimental.

If there is no damage, oil, then totally clean off with paper before use.

If you have to grind them, do so with an oilstone or extremely fine wet and dry carborundum paper stretched over a flat surface or steel strip like a file. Or wrapped around a rod for some of the curved ones. The sides of the knife should be laid and kept in flat contact to minimize any edge rounding.

Peter Smith.

bsouthernau · Post by **bsouthernau** » Tue Jun 17, 2014 9:32 am

aaronraad wrote:Still I've had great pricing and servicing out of San Diego Scale.

Me too.