SH Rule development (read the first post before commenting)

[Phil.D]

That would work too

[Toe Cutter]

Well,

As predicted we are seeing Veteran Shooters dropping back right down to the Bottom Level into SH standard to pick off Trophies - or as a number of people are starting to call them - “Trophy Hunters”

The idea of SH standard is to get new people into the sport - these guys don’t know or only just starting hand loading, powder and seating developments, trying to read the wind - but then along comes the Veteran Shooters to steal the Trophies off the new shooters and discourages from ever turning up again..

If this is you then you should be ashamed of yourself - i don’t know how you can look at yourself in the mirror..

As we saw in this last weeks VRA - the New Shooters in SH Standard missed out on Medals due to experienced shooter taking the lot - individual ranges, daily aggregates and overall aggregates

They had new shooters with the VRA being their first open shoot and just hoping not to come last etc and were shooting pretty good - 48s and 49s - then the Veterans come in and shoot a 50 V7 and steals the Medals

Like wtf?

This is not what the class was set up for and they need to change the rules asap to stop greedy scrounges swooping in and DRIVING new shooters back out of the sport…

And no - i don’t care what excuse you have - you have the experience adn years of practice under your belts - theres NO reason that you can’t shoot SH OPEN

There were 3 competing in the VRA SH standard - doing the “bare minimum” around the mounds and not once did i ever see them giving any or guys/gals new to the sport any tips - that alone tells you are lot

And bugger me - and without a word of a lie - during the Kings Ceremony where they bring in the Champ on the chair - and they Form a guard of honour with Previous Queens Winners - One of these old veterans stands up and goes to form the Honour Guard - like WTAF?

You’ve already Won a Queens - and now you are shooting against inexperienced shooters and stealing their medals and prizes…

Its was sickening to watch and so disappointing >:(

[dazza284]

Simple if you have been amember for 2 or more years you can't shoot it .

[macguru]

Honestly, the way you guys whine and carry on about the rules is truly embarrassing , you are not doing the sport any favours carrying on like a pack of old women. If you dont like the rules the way they are then make a submission to the NRAA to change them and stop making fools of yourselves. It is what it is, for the moment. Its not perfect but if you dont like it just shoot another discipline !

Andrew Beavis
North Sydney Rifle Club

[Weairy]

I have to agree with both sides of the argument on this one.

I know exactly who you're referring to - and I tend to agree to a point. If you’ve shot every other discipline under the sun for 10 years (not to mention shooting on a bench), nom up as Open, regardless of your rifles specs, and go make a competition out of it. Leave standard for the newcomers. You should KNOW that you're going to outstrip the experience of almost every Standard shooter there.

But pick any sport with this kind of class split, and it’s much the same. PRS has the same issues I believe. I even see a bit of it in TR and FS, where a few long-time shooters seem to slip back to B Grade in time for the Kings. The rules are there to be manipulated and you’ll forever get the trophy hunters, regardless of the sport or how you slice the classes up. By the rules, this shooter didn’t do anything non-compliant, just unethical, but that's a matter of opinion.

[Drop shot]

Well,

As predicted we are seeing Veteran Shooters dropping back right down to the Bottom Level into SH standard to pick off Trophies - or as a number of people are starting to call them - “Trophy Hunters”

The idea of SH standard is to get new people into the sport - these guys don’t know or only just starting hand loading, powder and seating developments, trying to read the wind - but then along comes the Veteran Shooters to steal the Trophies off the new shooters and discourages from ever turning up again..

If this is you then you should be ashamed of yourself - i don’t know how you can look at yourself in the mirror..

As we saw in this last weeks VRA - the New Shooters in SH Standard missed out on Medals due to experienced shooter taking the lot - individual ranges, daily aggregates and overall aggregates

They had new shooters with the VRA being their first open shoot and just hoping not to come last etc and were shooting pretty good - 48s and 49s - then the Veterans come in and shoot a 50 V7 and steals the Medals

Like wtf?

This is not what the class was set up for and they need to change the rules asap to stop greedy scrounges swooping in and DRIVING new shooters back out of the sport…

And no - i don’t care what excuse you have - you have the experience adn years of practice under your belts - theres NO reason that you can’t shoot SH OPEN

There were 3 competing in the VRA SH standard - doing the “bare minimum” around the mounds and not once did i ever see them giving any or guys/gals new to the sport any tips - that alone tells you are lot

And bugger me - and without a word of a lie - during the Kings Ceremony where they bring in the Champ on the chair - and they Form a guard of honour with Previous Queens Winners - One of these old veterans stands up and goes to form the Honour Guard - like WTAF?

You’ve already Won a Queens - and now you are shooting against inexperienced shooters and stealing their medals and prizes…

Its was sickening to watch and so disappointing >:(

I understand the sentiment, but I don't agree. That's not to say that you're wrong though, because you're heart is in the right place.

Sporting rifle is becoming it's own discipline. It's not a gateway anymore.

If people migrate from other disciplines over to Sporting Rifle, that's their choice. Whilst I believe that some may be "trophy hunters", it may be that Sporting Rifle is more compatible with their wants or needs WRT shooting - we can't tell an experienced shooter "no sporting rifle for you, you too good".

I understand wanting the newer shooters to have a positive experience, but I also think that earned skill should be rewarded. I'd want people to learn, and strive to be better, and progressively crawl their way to the top, but if people are going to be disheartened and leave because they didn't win, ok, I can't change someone's attitude.

I do feel like the classes are oddly structured and there's room for improvement there, but after going out to the range and talking to the PSR blokes.... I'm just not sure what that would look like as there's not a lot that gear limitations can do to separate the experienced from the noobs.

I did a KYL challenge couple of weeks ago at 300m with the smallest target being half inch;
My Mk22 cost me $22,000. Weighs 7.5kgs. Firing Gold Medal Match ammo. I've been shooting 20 years.... New bloke next to me with a Howa Varmint in an Oryx chassis and a Diamondback scope beat me.
Money doesn't = Skill
Gun weight didn't = accuracy
Experience didn't = impacts
He was just better than me.

So after I cut his brake lines, I reflected on what I was doing wrong, and i'll be able to beat the next guy next time. It's all a process.

I feel THAT'S the best way to show support to the new guys, in helping them understand where they went wrong, or where they can improve, and providing encouragement vs tying anchors to experienced shooters.

Marcus did have some interesting perspectives post the Sporting rifle shoot regards scores though. I think there's scope to investigate that further in the form of A grade and B grade, but that's above my pay grade.

[Toe Cutter]

Honestly, the way you guys whine and carry on about the rules is truly embarrassing , you are not doing the sport any favours carrying on like a pack of old women. If you dont like the rules the way they are then make a submission to the NRAA to change them and stop making fools of yourselves. It is what it is, for the moment. Its not perfect but if you dont like it just shoot another discipline !

Andrew Beavis
North Sydney Rifle Club

If we don’t discuss these things mate, things will never change for the better - no one is making fools of themselves here - or was it you dropping back and shooting in the Beginner class?

This thread is about Development of SH Rules btw

But there has been nonstop discussions on here about getting New People into the sport, SH was developed to bring in the new shooters, and now we see Trophy Hunters blowing them back out the door..

If you are fine with that then thats ok - but by gees - i had better not ever see you complaining that the sport is getting small and small and smaller….

See you on the mound

[macguru]

[/quote]

If we don’t discuss these things mate, things will never change for the better - no one is making fools of themselves here - or was it you dropping back and shooting in the Beginner class?
This thread is about Development of SH Rules btw
But there has been nonstop discussions on here about getting New People into the sport, SH was developed to bring in the new shooters, and now we see Trophy Hunters blowing them back out the door..

If you are fine with that then thats ok - but by gees - i had better not ever see you complaining that the sport is getting small and small and smaller….
See you on the mound [/quote]

Ive gotta tikka, it qualifies for both grades but ill be using it in PCO where possible from now on. i dont think people i know want to cheat they just enjoy shooting sniper style rifles without the 30in barrel and rest, this can be anything from a tikka in a plastic stock to an Accuracy international that cost 10 grand. ( people dont buy those to cheat they just can afford them and like having nice gear.) yep see you on the mound cheers andrew

[Tim L]

Get rid of the rear bag.
Sporting hunter/PCx is just another version of belly benchrest.
In the early days there was much debate over the accuracy of these "off the shelf" rifles. It seems that was much ado about nothing.
Remove the rear bag and see how you go. I've tried it with both an FTR rig and a PCO rifle
If my experience is anything to go by I reckon we won't need 2 grades, it won't matter what experience shooters have, or how much money, and it justifies the 5 ring score. There will be some natural talent, but pretty much everyone is going to have to learn to shoot a bit differently.

[Lithgow]

Get rid of the rear bag.
Sporting hunter/PCx is just another version of belly benchrest.
In the early days there was much debate over the accuracy of these "off the shelf" rifles. It seems that was much ado about nothing.
Remove the rear bag and see how you go. I've tried it with both an FTR rig and a PCO rifle
If my experience is anything to go by I reckon we won't need 2 grades, it won't matter what experience shooters have, or how much money, and it justifies the 5 ring score. There will be some natural talent, but pretty much everyone is going to have to learn to shoot a bit differently.

Range templates will be breached and Electronic Target Equipment will be destroyed.

As a potential lead in to TR or F Class, why would you want to run that risk? Especially when the progression into the other classes have those stability aids.

Centrefire is already shot like that but also limited to 300m for good reason.

I'm happy to shoot this style but be prepared for Registry/Governing body backlash and Clubs needing funding for consistent Target components when green shooters turn up.

[AlanF]

Agree with Lithgow. Ideally Sporter Discipline should be shot at club shoots alongside all other major F and TR classes, on the same targets at the same distances. This requires the capability of shooting safely and reliably out to the long ranges. Otherwise you'd need separate relays, or worse, separate events to cater for the varying long range capabilities. This would put pressure on many range schedules, whilst also dividing the club membership into separate groups.

This convenience of all classes shooting concurrently is the reason the F-Classes were able to be accepted on fullbore ranges. Even now, the ICFRA target which is much more TR friendly than scope sight friendly is maintained worldwide for F-Class. So perhaps Sporter Discipline enthusiasts need to spend a few more years going with the flow before pushing for radical changes?

[Tim L]

What are you basing those beliefs on?
Currently Hexta results suggest Sporter production class are shooting 1000y groups about half the size of C grade.
Removing the bag will open those up a bit but double?

Edited 100 to 1000y

[AlanF]

Hello Tim,
I'm mainly talking about weekend shoots at club level, where most beginners start, and the PC (not PC Open) class will hopefully continue to attract beginners. Once they have experience, its less of a problem. At Rosedale 2-3 minute group size is quite common even with the advantage of a rear bag. Disallow the bag and as you say it could double. Extend that out to long ranges with some tricky wind, and its an invitation to increased ET target damage, not to mention a very unsatisfying score. When you say remove the bag, are you suggesting the butt makes no contact other than with the shoulder?

[Tim L]

Yes mate.
Differentiate it from TR and F class.
I hear what your saying but if we're willing to accept the risk of C grade beginners, I don't see why there is any more risk with a bipod.
There's no reason why beginners can't shoot club with a bag until they find their way. With that said, I've seen new target rifle shooters start with a pedestal but steering with their shoulder. Same same isn't it?

.

[Drop shot]

The rear bag has to stay. It's already modified to be different to typical F-Class rear bags. The rules here should be borrowed from Chapter 24 of the SSRs for rear bags for PSR to limit type and size.

Sporting rifle is leaning into the practical or field appropriate shooting technique. A small rear bag/sand sock is a staple of field firing. Removing it wouldn't make sense.

The delineation between the classes is strange in their currently written format. Barrel contours and what not - hang on, i'll scrutineer, and bust out my callipers.

If not for grades, then 2 classes based solely on weight is probably the way to go. 6kg<, hunter class. 6kg+ Tactical class. Done.

It's not a gateway class anymore, it's standing alone, so if people come along and get dunked on by more experienced shooters, that's just what happens when you are new to something and learning.

Our club is focusing on Sporting Rifle and Precision Service Rifle. Sporting Rifle is the pure precision part of firing, PSR is the practical component. Your sporting rifle goes straight into PSR - this, I feel, is a better approach as it's mutually supporting other disciplines and getting people to shoot more often.

I think it's important that we establish a rules committee around people that actually shoot these types of rifles, as opposed to a committee that is making decisions based on a philosophy.