Expression of Interest: F/Std to be offered in APS 2024

[RMc]

Reading the above it is obvious that FO is an ungraded class but it needs a feeder class to bring new people in, and that is FStd, it is already there and allows people to shoot relatively cheaper than FO. When and if someone wants to step up they do, that is where most FO shooters came from(not all), but also allows others to shoot each week.

RMc

[PeteFox]

No. Shit Fight Peter, and I never said I did not want FS as an international comp. Quite the opposite actually. But we are not talking about international comp.
.

I think we are talking about an international comp as per this announcement a few days ago
viewtopic.php?f=68&t=16299

I think that this APS series is the single biggest thing to happen to Target Rifle shooting in the 39 years since I started. It's innovative and is competition that can have a real time audience by taking advantage of ET technology.
Two things will help generate the positive publicity we so desperately need as a movement
- Lots of patricipants
- International competition

It's important to get FStd shooters competing to boost numbers. Looking at the sponsors coming on board, the industry can see it, but apathy wins in the shooting cohort again. I haven't seen a " yeah I'll give up my rest to be a part of this" response to the topic question, just lots of negativity.

Pete

[douwdekock]

This is a very interesting topic and towards the end it dwindle lo some comments about FOpen and I assume FTR. My understanding is that the The Point Series is an international competitive event and therefore all the international classes were included, that being FTR and FOpen. F standard is a local comp and not an international event, Albert’s post was to reach out to F Standard shooters to see if there is an interest.

Just by the way, I would rather lose A grad than win B grade…..

[DenisA]

Not including FSB in stats comparing discipline attendance is just fudging figures and facts to sway a debate.

Just because someone's in FSB, tries hard and doesn't shoot A grade scores doesn't mean that they don't count and just because some one sets up an FTR or an Open gun and shoots at a Kings doesn't mean that they're highly competitive or would qualify for A grade in FO or FTR if those grades existed.

[jasmay]

Not including FSB in stats comparing discipline attendance is just fudging figures and facts to sway a debate.

Just because someone's in FSB, tries hard and doesn't shoot A grade scores doesn't mean that they don't count and just because some one sets up an FTR or an Open gun and shoots at a Kings doesn't mean that they're highly competitive or would qualify for A grade in FO or FTR if those grades existed.

How do you fairly compare disciplines that don’t have the same grades but openly have people that won’t shoot major comps because they’re not competitive?

I stated clearly the reason I did it, there was no attempt to hide it or “fudge” figures as you’ve stated Dennis, rather it was an attempt to make a fair comparison.

If both FO and FTR had a B grade, I firmly believe they would have greater numbers.

At least I’ve tried to make a comparison that openly states the reason for method.

One could just as easily say the refusal to introduce B grade for FTR & F-Open is an attempt to bolster numbers in F-Std… but sheesh, wouldn’t that be looked poorly upon.

Would you think are fairer analysis would consider the % of B grade attracted to F-Std would be similar in other grades?

[DenisA]

If there wasn’t a B grade in STD, I think overall FSTD numbers would be the same. It’s not the B grade that attracts people to it, it’s the cheaper costs of components, longer barrel life and comfort of shooting off a front rest while still being involved in the sport. If you’re comparing numbers of shooters per discipline at a pm it has to be simply based off the entries bought for the discipline to be fair. You must see that!?. TR numbers include A, B and C. If you start culling numbers of a discipline because they don’t shoot as well as the top guys, you have to draw a similar line for other disciplines too. So where and how do you do that?

[jasmay]

Sorry, simply don’t agree on the component comment.

Barrel life, sure, in F-Open, but projectiles and powder, similar costs, actually cheaper in some instances than typical F-std 155.5

FTR has identical barrel life to F-Std (if not longer). Front rests for F-Std cost way more than FTR, so also a not cost related.

If a “B” grade is so insignificant when attracting people to compete in the sport/discipline, why have a B grade at all?

[DenisA]

When you’re talking about shooting the maximum competitive load in each discipline to be making the most of the rules, to be competitive at the furthest distance, my point on components is correct. So that’s big 7s in Open and 200 series bullets in FTR and 155's in STD.
So in FTR how many firings per case do you get with 200 series bullets?

Front rests are not a an ongoing consumable cost so that’s not valid in cost comparison between disciplines. You could shoot off a Caldwell fire control or a folding bipod in STD if you wanted to be cheaper, same as cheaper scopes, actions and rifles can be used in all disciplines. That’s the beauty of FSTD, it’s THE MOST versatile, cost effective discipline which is again probably a major reason that overall numbers are higher.
Comparing costs of discipline must be based on ongoing consumable costs for an honest discussion.

[jasmay]

Dennis,

Many shooters in FTR are not using 200gr projectiles, that’s a fact. (185 & 155 remain a popular choice amongst FTR shooters even at the longs).

Cases are going onto 12+ firings, no sign of replacement required, many others the same.

Powder charges are almost identical between FTR & F-Std, so not really a major cost.

So you’re talking a few cents difference if you are shooting heavies, max 10c a projectile…

Not considering set up costs to start in a discipline is also not having an honest conversation as setup cost is usually the biggest barrier potential new members are concerned about. Especially when you are talking about $1000.00+ difference in intial setup, even taking 10c per projectile and let’s say shooting 2000 rounds a year (more than most will shoot) you’re talking about a 5year payback, the consumables arguement just isn’t there. (And then if your home range is a short range, the big FO Cal arguement also cannot be applied consistently).

Barrel life… well in excess of 3000 rounds and still going.

Either your info is out of date or you’re “fudging numbers”

Then, again, after all this, if it’s not “B” grade that attracts new shooters, why have a “B” grade? (I note you dodged this).

If your kids start F-Class, will you have them start in “A” grade given your comments diminishing the importance of an entry grade?

[DenisA]

Dennis,



Then, again, after all this, if it’s not “B” grade that attracts new shooters, why have a “B” grade? (I note you dodged this).

If your kids start F-Class, will you have them start in “A” grade given your comments diminishing the importance of an entry grade?

I didn't intentionally dodge the question. I just think its irrelevant. B grade in FS was here before the majority of current shooters began shooting. There's a lot of older shooters that still attend club shoots that are in B grade with their peers and it's not my style to attack someone else's thing when it has nothing to do with me. There is NO negative that comes from B grade in STD so why would I talk it down, say it doesn't matter enough to include in statistics or advocate against it. I know that's not the question, but the point is it was there before I started, we have no control over its inclusion, its a positive, its place in FSTD is not a concern that we need to justify or change its existence so happy days for that.

If you want to ad lower grades in Open or FTR that's a different story that I'd be happy to support you in.

People don't start shooting because they want to win straight away. People start shooting because its fun, they feel a passion for it and they want to learn. Then there's a desire to be competitive and you want to start clawing your way up. So lower grades is irrelevant to me unless the field of competitors has such high numbers that a prize pool has to be dispersed to reward the up and coming. I don't think any shooting disciplines in Aus are attended by numbers that make introducing lower grades that imperative.......... but I wouldn't, NOT support the idea.

Anyway, we're way off topic. I haven't been on this forum for a really long time. I drop in now and then to see what's being discussed and I love the idea and development of the APS, so I came in for a read. I'm just so sick of seeing people being negative about and trying to erode FSTD.

B graders matter in statistics, they pay entry fee's for the competitions that are required to run events and they're still trying to grow as shooters. The same as the lower 50% in Open and FTR whether you put a subtitle above them or not.

[PeteFox]

How about you compare:
F Open 'A' with FTR 'A' with F STD 'A'

Or better still, finish with the BS and get back to the substance of the question
Pete

[jasmay]

Dennis,

To be clear, I see “B” grade as a very important part of our sport, almost all sports have grades or handicaps that allow néw competitors somewhere to start.

My comments are not in any way to diminish it, instead they are to reinforce the importance of it fkr new comers, I have 1 in my own family who is a great shooter, just top scored the annual fixtures event, but is incredibly nervous competing with the top end of town… “B” would help this person.

I am also loaning equipment to new shooters to help them get a start, but they are also struggling understanding where they fit in comps.

“B” grade stats are an important consideration.

I don’t think anyone is trying to “erode” F-Std, instead they are highlighting where F-std has had the opportunity to grow due to its structure and the other grades could also benefit from that…

[heritage5]

Hi all we need this to be inclusive bur let's get the F open underway and iron out any problems and in 2025 bring in a 308w grade that is set up to include f standard and FTR maybe any projectiles up to 165gr shot off a Bypod.
Just my 2 bobs worth

Guy src

[tez72]

It’s a shame this possibility has turned into controversy. I filled out the survey and eluded in it that controversy was on the horizon as it’s going to be hard to blend FTR and F STD. But it’s very commendable that F STD has been considered in any capacity. Hopefully a solution can be reached.

[ajvanwyk]

Dear all,

I'm pleased to announce the completion of the F-Standard Expression of Interest (EOI) survey. A heartfelt thank you to each of you for sharing your insights and engaging in this pivotal discussion. Your contributions are invaluable to us.

It is imperative to clarify the foundational purpose of the Australian Points Series (APS). The APS has been designed to enrich our sport's landscape, not to serve as a rival to our Open Prize Meetings (OPMs), State Championships, or to replace the vital roles played by our clubs, associations, or the National Rifle Association of Australia (NRAA). Beyond promoting the sport, a core objective of the APS is to enhance the skill sets of our shooters. This series aims to elevate our collective talents, offering a robust platform for learning and progression.

The APS distinguishes itself as an internationally focused F-class competition, adhering to the International Confederation of Fullbore Rifle Associations (ICFRA) rules. It provides new and experienced competitors with the opportunity to compete in conditions and within guidelines that are only experienced once every four years.

Summary:
The feedback from the F-Standard EOI survey underscores a strong interest in joining the Australian Points Series (APS) for varied reasons, such as fostering closer ties within the shooting disciplines, elevating competition levels, and embracing new formats. Respondents see the APS as a platform for enhancing skills, competing against top-level shooters, and enjoying the sport more fully. Including F-Standard in the APS is viewed as a unique opportunity for international exposure and skill development in a discipline exclusive to Australia.

For your consideration, I provide you the full set of results, apart from some redacted names.

FStd_Survey - January 2024.pdf

FStd - Why Join APS.pdf

FStd - Any other Info_Redacted.pdf