Richard,
we have run open days, supplying rifles,ammo and coaching, and we have not gained any TR shooters from them. The participants find it all too hard to wrestle with a sling, unfamiliar open sights, etc. and they loose interest in it very quickly, whereas with the F Class rifle they can experience good results immediately, and are encouraged by that.
It is not a case of dumbing them down, but rather giving them what they want. How many new TR shooters has your club picked up over the last few years? I haven't noticed any new ones in your results page.
As to a good TR score being more enjoyable than an FC one, that may be your preference, but it is not mine. It is every bit as difficult to shoot a big 60 as it is to shoot a big 50. I have done both, and I am speaking from my personal experience. You should try it some time.
John
Lang Lang Open
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bartman007
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TR or FC for new shooters
I think if I had my time again, I would probably have never been a TR shooter. Is there anything wrong with that? NO.
I grew up on a farm, and when I went to Uni I missed being able to shoot stuff. That is why I went to my local range (Moe), and took up target shooting.
Having used a scope on a hunting rifle for many years, I think I would have just adapted that to shoot targets.
I think if you gave new members an option:
1. What most are currently familiar with (hunting rifle with scope)
2. What is foreign to them (rifle with RINGS)
Most would favour the scoped option.
There is nothing wrong with either sport, just give the customer what he/she wants. Then our movement will stay strong.
I grew up on a farm, and when I went to Uni I missed being able to shoot stuff. That is why I went to my local range (Moe), and took up target shooting.
Having used a scope on a hunting rifle for many years, I think I would have just adapted that to shoot targets.
I think if you gave new members an option:
1. What most are currently familiar with (hunting rifle with scope)
2. What is foreign to them (rifle with RINGS)
Most would favour the scoped option.
There is nothing wrong with either sport, just give the customer what he/she wants. Then our movement will stay strong.
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Barry Davies
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Richard,
The first thing you have to realize is that you cannot make comparisons between TR and FS. If people did less of this they would have less antagonism toward F Class.
To each their own. Each discipline stands alone, each discipline has it's difficulties.
I see the biggest challenge in F Class is getting the rifle to shoot acceptably small enough groups, then, having done that you have to be able to read the wind to 1/4 moa to stay in the 6 ring.
I have been involved in trying to get new shooters for many years and you know what the biggest problem was -- trying to get them wrapped up in a shooting coat and then a sling. By the time you achieved this they were somewhat fazed. Now they had to try and hold the thing up, steady it and hopefully hit the target. Most times it did'nt happen. If they were of sufficient stamina they might manage to get 5 or so shots away. It was agony to watch. The real keen ones would return and eventually sign up, but, it would be years before they showed any real signs that there may be some talent there - if they stayed around that long.
F Class on the other hand -- well, we have all seen how it works,-- no stress, easy on the body, good results quicker ( and why the hell not ).
Percentage wise more come back, more stay = more members.
People make up their own minds as to which discipline they ultimately want - finally we can give them a choice.
And, good F Class scores are earned as well - if you are not prepared to put a lot of time in coming to terms with wind, forget F Class.
Barry
The first thing you have to realize is that you cannot make comparisons between TR and FS. If people did less of this they would have less antagonism toward F Class.
To each their own. Each discipline stands alone, each discipline has it's difficulties.
I see the biggest challenge in F Class is getting the rifle to shoot acceptably small enough groups, then, having done that you have to be able to read the wind to 1/4 moa to stay in the 6 ring.
I have been involved in trying to get new shooters for many years and you know what the biggest problem was -- trying to get them wrapped up in a shooting coat and then a sling. By the time you achieved this they were somewhat fazed. Now they had to try and hold the thing up, steady it and hopefully hit the target. Most times it did'nt happen. If they were of sufficient stamina they might manage to get 5 or so shots away. It was agony to watch. The real keen ones would return and eventually sign up, but, it would be years before they showed any real signs that there may be some talent there - if they stayed around that long.
F Class on the other hand -- well, we have all seen how it works,-- no stress, easy on the body, good results quicker ( and why the hell not ).
Percentage wise more come back, more stay = more members.
People make up their own minds as to which discipline they ultimately want - finally we can give them a choice.
And, good F Class scores are earned as well - if you are not prepared to put a lot of time in coming to terms with wind, forget F Class.
Barry
John, Barry, Michael
Here lies the problem most of this post was on how well F class was going and that the F class winner should be chaired in etc, but this is a tradition for the people who put themselves thru the extra pain for their sport. They go thru all the things that you state that make TR a longer term for the rewards that they seek.
F class should make their own traditions, and stop trying to look at only numbers as the ground for their sports survival. There is no doubt that with time scope shooting will be the main sport but for now all forms should be able to survive together.
But I also believe that the people who run/control our clubs should not put their own preferences above all forms of our sport. On this side of the mountains F class is pushed very hard, whilst in the western and northern districts it is more even, just look at the DRA results and you will see this in our teams.
Here lies the problem most of this post was on how well F class was going and that the F class winner should be chaired in etc, but this is a tradition for the people who put themselves thru the extra pain for their sport. They go thru all the things that you state that make TR a longer term for the rewards that they seek.
F class should make their own traditions, and stop trying to look at only numbers as the ground for their sports survival. There is no doubt that with time scope shooting will be the main sport but for now all forms should be able to survive together.
But I also believe that the people who run/control our clubs should not put their own preferences above all forms of our sport. On this side of the mountains F class is pushed very hard, whilst in the western and northern districts it is more even, just look at the DRA results and you will see this in our teams.
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bartman007
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TR new shooters
Hi Richard,
It is a pity that TR may not be pushed as much now a day's, as it was when I first started. But that is my nostalgic feelings kicking in.
When I first started, there was only TR. The club had a TR rifle along with a couple of jackets with slings. And due to everyone shooting TR, there was enough members willing to share gear to get me into the sport.
While it was new to me, there was only 1 option available to shoot. If I came along now, with my previous experience as a farm boy, then I would still pick the scope option. I think that is where our new comers are coming from today.
In regard to traditions, if you look at the various sports around then you will see the winner being hoisted up on shoulders of their piers, or in chairs or the like. Some way of acknowledging their exceptional performance over the competition and conditions experienced!
In TR you have the chairing tradition, and it would be nice if TR would share that tradition with F-Class. After all, it is simply a way of acknowledging the fine performance of the top shooter's of the day. Regardless of the discipline involved.
IMHO.
It is a pity that TR may not be pushed as much now a day's, as it was when I first started. But that is my nostalgic feelings kicking in.
When I first started, there was only TR. The club had a TR rifle along with a couple of jackets with slings. And due to everyone shooting TR, there was enough members willing to share gear to get me into the sport.
While it was new to me, there was only 1 option available to shoot. If I came along now, with my previous experience as a farm boy, then I would still pick the scope option. I think that is where our new comers are coming from today.
In regard to traditions, if you look at the various sports around then you will see the winner being hoisted up on shoulders of their piers, or in chairs or the like. Some way of acknowledging their exceptional performance over the competition and conditions experienced!
In TR you have the chairing tradition, and it would be nice if TR would share that tradition with F-Class. After all, it is simply a way of acknowledging the fine performance of the top shooter's of the day. Regardless of the discipline involved.
IMHO.
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John E
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Richard,
It isn't a matter of administrators putting their own preferences first, it's a matter of giving the customers what they prefer -- if we want to keep them.
If we want to fight for the survival of our sport, we must have the numbers, and if we can't attract new members then we won't have the numbers and clubs will close down, as will ranges.
I could name 3 clubs which are struggling to exist, simply because their TR members are dying off, they can't attract new members to shoot TR, and they won't consider F Class. It doesn't take a lot of working out to know how they are going to end up.
I shot TR for a lot of years and I don't want to see it or it's traditions disappear either, but it's no good burying our heads in the sand and pretending everything will be all right.
John
It isn't a matter of administrators putting their own preferences first, it's a matter of giving the customers what they prefer -- if we want to keep them.
If we want to fight for the survival of our sport, we must have the numbers, and if we can't attract new members then we won't have the numbers and clubs will close down, as will ranges.
I could name 3 clubs which are struggling to exist, simply because their TR members are dying off, they can't attract new members to shoot TR, and they won't consider F Class. It doesn't take a lot of working out to know how they are going to end up.
I shot TR for a lot of years and I don't want to see it or it's traditions disappear either, but it's no good burying our heads in the sand and pretending everything will be all right.
John
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Lynn Otto
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For what it's worth, TR don't own the chairing tradition, they never have, they borrowed it from the Arts; poets, musicians and playsmiths. In fact the whole chair tradition is more closer aligned with the fact that it is the 'Queen's/Kind's Prize', the chair itself was the actual prize in it's original context. So whether F Class is entitled to use it or not would be underpinned by whether we are actually shooting the Queen's Prize or whether we are just a sideshow for the entertainment of the peasants.
Personally I believe that since TR are no longer using the equipment that was originally used when Queen Victoria instigated the event they are no more entitled to claim it as their own than F Class are. Our equipment is simply the next evolution in the sport just as the 308 replaced the 303 and the 303 replaced the previous equipment. And I'm sure at some point in the future this will again change, perhaps they will be shooting the targets with lasers, who knows. The important factor will be whether they are shooting the Queen's/King's Prize.
I'll just wander back into my corner now shall I.
Personally I believe that since TR are no longer using the equipment that was originally used when Queen Victoria instigated the event they are no more entitled to claim it as their own than F Class are. Our equipment is simply the next evolution in the sport just as the 308 replaced the 303 and the 303 replaced the previous equipment. And I'm sure at some point in the future this will again change, perhaps they will be shooting the targets with lasers, who knows. The important factor will be whether they are shooting the Queen's/King's Prize.
I'll just wander back into my corner now shall I.
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johnk
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It has become more challenging with the advent of F class & different scoring methodologies.
There was a time when the one shooter chaired was undeniably the outstanding shooter in the pack at that event - the one with the highest score. Now, any judgement is subjective one way or t'other.
If I was forced to take a side, maybe I'd say the chairing as we've known it for 150 years or so was a laurel bestowed on the single winner of a Queen's TR series shoot & should continue thus. An alternative accolade might be created to be bestowed on the highest scoring F class shooter, maybe. In any case, a deal of sensitivity needs be applied to avoid diminishing the value of any such awards to current & future recipients.
John
There was a time when the one shooter chaired was undeniably the outstanding shooter in the pack at that event - the one with the highest score. Now, any judgement is subjective one way or t'other.
If I was forced to take a side, maybe I'd say the chairing as we've known it for 150 years or so was a laurel bestowed on the single winner of a Queen's TR series shoot & should continue thus. An alternative accolade might be created to be bestowed on the highest scoring F class shooter, maybe. In any case, a deal of sensitivity needs be applied to avoid diminishing the value of any such awards to current & future recipients.
John
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Lynn Otto
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johnk wrote:In any case, a deal of sensitivity needs be applied to avoid diminishing the value of any such awards to current & future recipients.
John
I agree John, I would be happy if the two F Class winners were acknowledged in a manner suitable to the achievement. It would not need to detract from the TR winner in any way. There are several possibilities which to my mind would enhance the proceedings.
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