Compensation Tuning Again?.......... Sorry!

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williada
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Re: Compensation Tuning Again?.......... Sorry!

Post by williada »

I decided to edit the post and put a few diagrams in. Sorry if I have given information overload.

Generally, I like to work with 30 fps average below and above a node velocity average to give an average range of 60 fps to induce that velocity variation. This was originally based on typical velocity spreads of selected factory ammunition and environmental changes we experienced in the fullbore days.


Now in terms of Denis’s problem, he’s found a good node and he’s at full powder capacity, I’m sure he wants to know his barrel is not a negative compensator and so use it at 1000 yards. Assume the node is now the fast charge and make up other test rounds, one that gives a charge about 30 fps less than the nodal group and another one that gives 60 fps less than node charge. Then go about your tests. Then refine them again if you have to.


Compensation depends on bore angle and bore time. It is just so important to have your barrel curvature oriented in the vertical plane as discussed on another post. Of course altering bore time can be induced by free flight distance. There are many ways to alter bore time. But free flight is an interesting one. It is an art to set the best free flight and only after doing many barrels do you pay attention to the patterns as they fan, hollow, round, elongate vertically and laterally, and form triangles do you know how far to take out your throat or when the lift will reverse, trend up, neutral or down. This can happen anywhere between -.015”(into the lands) and .085” jump to the lands. The free flight is very much linked to compensation characteristics.

Fig 1 Changing free flight alters sine wave seen with Winchester Palma factory ammo. Source: Williada. Tests conducted at 100 Yards from a machine rest with factory ammunition using a universal throating reamer. Jump taken out in .010” increments.

Image





Fig 2 Incremental Load by ½ grain. Source: williada. Machine rest, reloaded 155 Sierra, Lapua cases at100 Yards.

Image


These days at home, I do a charge test at 140 yards by firing incremental charge weights (about 5 rounds for each charge) in round robin style with each group separated by an aim off in the horizontal will reveal the sine wave pattern which you can tap into. This has several effects, one is to show the node for a nodal tune; two for a positive compensator look for the fast bullet usually to the left and down from of the peak of the sine wave and the slow bullet near the peak. By looking at all of the incremental charge groups in the horizontal rather than individual peaks you can see the macro trends of the barrel. Are sections level, pointing up or down? Which one could let you down if your reloading or environmental conditions change? So compensation tuning can help if you slip off the node. In figure 2, I would further test load between groups 3 and 4 knowing I would be into the node and close to neutral compensation if in the afternoon temperatures raised velocity. In the morning a slight positive compensation would exist if it was cooler because we know a cool barrel and particularly the first shots out of a cool barrel can go low. I find the horizontal test better than the ladder test from a visual perspective.

Also note that bullets have to be travelling faster than the speed of sound at the target distance. There was a tendency for factory Palma loads to fall below the speed of sound at 1000 yards with barrels under 31 inches and enter the transonic range which destabilises the projectile. In other words they cross back over the sound barrier. People don’t realise the speed of sound changes with temperature and groups can fall apart at long range when the cartridge is at its velocity limits. A good place to be is past the sound barrier before the sonic curve gets steeper. Lower velocities require faster spin rates to keep them stable. That is another topic.




Fig. 3 Transonic Range
Image


This introduces the coning or transitional yawing effect for short range testing. So I test when the bullet has gone to sleep at 140 yards.

Yawing effects. IF YOU WANT TO LEARN ABOUT BALLISTICS check Ruprecht’s site. Oldy but a goody.
http://www.nennstiel-ruprecht.de/bullfly/
Fig. 4.
Image

The cross section of the yawing effects demonstrates that a small sample size can mislead you to think that future groups will be small if the shots happen to group tightly by random. Your tests need to be repeatable.

The barrel lift which affects bore angle can also be altered by changing a fundamental weight on the muzzle as mentioned in the sticky post on recoil and stock design. There are many ways to change barrel lift.

The importance of round robin testing cannot be understated when you see some graphs of velocity, barrel temperature and pressure shot at strict 45 second intervals. I will leave detailed comments for a later date. But think how long your string of centres will last in a long string before you can expect smaller sine waves to naturally develop in your velocity spreads given that cartridges are as identical as you can make them. Extend to a really long test string and you will see how rhythmic they are. Learn to expect them and adjust on them, and not on a perceived environmental change. Note that it takes until the fourth shot for the barrel to settle and that it is the second sighter that can mislead the shooter, not the first assuming your sights have been set correctly. I don’t start group refining until I have at least 3 warm up shots, something that F Open used to practice as they used to be allowed 3 sighters.

Fig 4. Velocity, Barrel Temperature, Pressure.
Image


Coaches might find this stuff worth reading to assist them with analysis and correction of groups. Would knowing your setup is the best it can be and your ammunition is as uniform as it can be assist you to relax?
williada
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Re: Compensation Tuning Again?.......... Sorry!

Post by williada »

I forgot to mention for those that want to nodal tune at the short ranges, I have had very good results with the node in the trough of the sine wave as opposed to the peak. David.
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Re: Compensation Tuning Again?.......... Sorry!

Post by williada »

Below are graphs of Bisley Blue Box Ammo and Brown Box Ammo circa 2003-4. The first three are Blue Box and the last three are Brown Box. There was only a short delay in the test for Brown Box from Blue Box and so the barrel had not cooled sufficiently. What I want to highlight is the rhythmic nature of the sine wave in the velocity spread in Brown Box. The tests for velocity, barrel temperature and pressure were simultaneous.

Image
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Re: Compensation Tuning Again?.......... Sorry!

Post by DaveMc »

Thanks David - I will post some pictures etc as well and then discuss with relation to effect at 1000 yards.

This one has been posted before. Unfortunately it does not cover enough below the 2800fps mark to see the next curve but we can get the idea
Image

https://imageshack.com/f/0s284shj

Sorry - new system and can't work out how to get a bigger image - may have to go to link and download.

This is very typical of most rifles we have tested here with heavy barrels (1.25 inch) and conventional bedding or aluminium bedding block.
We have not seen a great deal of difference in the palma type 308 barrels either. And Davids barrel above seems very similar too.

shot # load # vel (fps) mm minutes
1 1 2802 -18 -0.23
2 1 2807 -24 -0.30
3 1 2809 -20 -0.25
4 2 2842 -20 -0.25
5 2 2847 -12 -0.15
6 2 2847 -18 -0.23
7 3 2891 -5 -0.06
8 3 2894 -17 -0.22
9 3 2896 -7 -0.09
10 4 2927 21 0.27
11 4 2931 2 0.03
12 4 2937 10 0.13
13 5 2958 40 0.51
14 5 2967 25 0.32
15 5 2972 25 0.32

Most rifles are very flat shooting (compensating) with velocity increase over a 50-100 fps range. This one 9 shots over 94 fps under a quarter of minute at 300 yards.

I will go back and graph what this will look like at 100, 300 and 1000 yards in next few days. But in general you will see it dropping a little between 2800 and 2890 at 100 yards. At 1000 it will barely cause a blip on the radar.
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Re: Compensation Tuning Again?.......... Sorry!

Post by williada »

Dave its good to see I am not alone in the dark. I really look forward to your comments. David.
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Re: Compensation Tuning Again?.......... Sorry!

Post by aaronraad »

DaveMc wrote: We have not seen a great deal of difference in the palma type 308 barrels either. And Davids barrel above seems very similar too.

shot # load # vel (fps) mm minutes
1 1 2802 -18 -0.23
2 1 2807 -24 -0.30
3 1 2809 -20 -0.25
4 2 2842 -20 -0.25
5 2 2847 -12 -0.15
6 2 2847 -18 -0.23
7 3 2891 -5 -0.06
8 3 2894 -17 -0.22
9 3 2896 -7 -0.09
10 4 2927 21 0.27
11 4 2931 2 0.03
12 4 2937 10 0.13
13 5 2958 40 0.51
14 5 2967 25 0.32
15 5 2972 25 0.32


But which of the 5 loads did you settle one in the end DaveMc and why?
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DaveMc
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Re: Compensation Tuning Again?.......... Sorry!

Post by DaveMc »

Aaron - everything between 2800 and 2880 fps (first three loads) shoots well. In fact this is one of those barrels that you can almost throw anything at. I chose to load around 2840 fps to be in the middle of this area. It shoots very flat at 300-700 yards and the velocity spread is good enough if I am careful with loading and prep to keep it together all the way out.
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Re: Compensation Tuning Again?.......... Sorry!

Post by DaveMc »

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Re: Compensation Tuning Again?.......... Sorry!

Post by pjifl »

I would really like to see someone deliberately investigate both the compensation possible and the accuracy potential from a relatively light barrel using offset muzzle weights.
TR shooters using a modern front tunnel foresight are actually doing this to some extent. A vertical offset weight would deliberately induce more vertical barrel vibrations. Unfortunately, also lateral ones as well although of less amplitude.

To be useful in today's FO or FTR 1000 yd competition, the rifle would need to pump out sub 1/2 minute groups.
At what degree of compensation does the accuracy degrade this amount ??

The best way to investigate this is at short range, measuring V and elevation impacts.
As a matter of interest, in a different era, this was investigated for an Lee Enfield in a Gymnasium using targets and sandbags !

I simply do not have the time to do this. In fact, I don't have any thin accurate barrels these days.

It would be a worthwhile project for someone.

Peter Smith.
williada
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Re: Compensation Tuning Again?.......... Sorry!

Post by williada »

I would like to emphasise that a negatively compensating barrel for 1000 yard shooting should not be used. It is the championship distance in our game. You have to diagnose with testing whether your barrel is a negative compensator.

At this distance every little trick in the book has to be used to get a margin even if you just nick the line to stay in the hunt. There is enough for the shooter to contend with - different wind zones over the course, changes in air density and mirage and reading the magnus force effect on bullets (changes induced in elevation) in fishtailing conditions and not to mention you could be first down on a cold morning when your barrel is not operating above 100 degrees f and your perfect reloads are varying in velocity.

Despite your perfect reloads, a negatively compensating barrel will spread any velocity variances OUTWARDS on the target vertically, and if your barrel lifts on an angle the bullets will be tossed out on that angle.

Conversely, a neutral barrel will hold you IN, not out and only drop a bit out at six o’clock with slight variances in low velocities and is very manageable. Of course the positively compensating barrel will spread variances INWARDS, not out, and work with your skills and not against them.

I don’t go overboard with the compensation thing and rely on sound reloading techniques. I do like a slightly compensating barrel for insurance but I am happy with the neutral one. I like to work these barrel characteristics as close as possible to a node.

For those using tuners, there is a fundamental weight that will time the bullet exit at the top of the barrel lift if you are happy with the bore centre line in relation to your stocks centre of gravity which follows through to the fulcrum point of the butt on your shoulder and your ammunition (except if you use free recoil techniques which largely mitigates against barrel lift).

If you want to play with the fundamental weight, may I suggest you prepare two boxes of test rounds where each box is loaded to an average velocity that equates to the maximum value of your extreme spread of your best reloads and the minimum value of your extreme spread. Through habit I induce an average velocity variation of 60 fps. You can choose less or more, but make it relative to the natural extreme spread of your normal loads. Now go to the distance you want to test and add weight to the muzzle until the two test batches begin to form one group not two separate groups. Then the barrel will be compensating. Myself, I use a Beggs style tuner which I can alter forward and aft and it covers the fundamental weight issue and enables fine tuning.

For those that use a light variable tuner at the muzzle, I believe these operate on the secondary and tertiary and other vibrations more so, than the fundamental lift of the barrel induced by the bore line in relation to the centre of gravity of the stock. They enable you to fine tune and change the shape of your group by working on those three dimensional vibrations as the barrel muzzle rises. I use them to tune out the lateral particularly for 1000 yards where wind judgement is more damaging than elevation. The thing I must emphasise that with these tuners it only takes about ¼ to ½ a turn on them not handfuls, to see the change in group shape and not necessarily general elevation of the group centre which of course fundamental weights change. Do these tests at any range when wind or light is not a factor. They are useful when environmental changes occur to keep you on the node but I think it’s more accident than design with light variable to change the compensation pattern for a short and long range rifle unless that barrel is already allowing the projectile to exit at the top of the sine wave and perhaps the barrel is very sensitive if it is long and slender. Barrels do come in all shapes and profiles. The fine tuning can be useful if you are aware the barrel grows longer as it heats up. Maybe DaveMc can tell us by how much, and it may have some influence on those minor sign waves we see forming with excellent ammunition. Just maybe its only relevant at extreme distance. Anyway food for thought.
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Re: Compensation Tuning Again?.......... Sorry!

Post by williada »

As a result of testing the barrels in project Penumbra for the NRAA, using factory loads it was very clear that a bore and groove size effected performance. I don't know of anyone else that has done similar testing on other calibres. But this testing also revealed that barrel twist was critical and clearly separated those twists better suited for short range up to 600 yards and the long range of 1000 yards. This correlated with the technical advice from the Department of Defence based in South Australia at that time and computer software I used. So those on world beating missions should seriously think about a short range rifle and a long range rifle. I would go as far to say you need a mid range barrel twist if resources were infinite. I would leave the compensation tuning for the long range gear.

The other thing I would say, is you need barrels whose twist rates stabilize the projectile at the location where they are shot. It makes sense that tuning takes place under similar conditions or you rely on those experiences of people who have travelled before you. Or you can simulate to the best of your ability with the available technology. Your can look up weather reports, find prevailing winds, barometric pressures etc. and plug those conditions into software. For instance, atmospheric density can change with altitude, barometric pressure - heat and humidity and we have to use different twist rates to stabilise the projectile e.g. shooting 4000 ft above sea level as compared to sea level.

In terms of compensation, note the flat mound angles of Bisley and compare those to Scotland and the same applies to ranges around Australia. Remember that it is muzzle angle that effects compensation and your perfectly compensated and tuned rifle may well be a dud somewhere else.
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Re: Compensation Tuning Again?.......... Sorry!

Post by DaveMc »

Hi David - I really wish I had more time at the moment to put to this discussion. Can only spare 5 minutes here and there between jobs but am sure you will find our research interesting - even if sometimes counterintuitive.

Similar to project penumbra, we worked for several years on research for last years world championships. It was not sponsored by the NRAA however and done off our own bat. A couple of mad north Queensland scientists, pilots, engineers and other shooting enthusiasts. Having Peter Smith up here was our own "secret weapon" that aided all this immensely (not possible without him for time, effort and knowledge) and we should all be grateful for his lifetime contribution to the sport (as yours). Similar to Penumbra there are a great many lessons that came from the work and I see them filtering through the Australian shooting community. It is a nice outcome and worth the effort.

As the world championships were 8,9 and 1000 yards and arguably the pinnacle of the accuracy end of the sport (Fopen/FTR) we concentrated heavily on some of the long range accuracy issues. We were about to play against a highly sponsored team with arguably the most accurate rifles and world class coaches (with very experienced TR world championship backgrounds) on their home soil. To use their own words "barring equipment failure (they) would surely take home the gold". - No doubt about it we had to do something special to knock them off. But they wouldn't have been so cocky if they knew we had Peter Smith!

One thing we did study was compensation at 1000 yards. This was not a comprehensive study by any means but we did get some "surprising results (Peter was not surprised however as he predicted/suspected them all along).

I am sure you will be very interested in them so I will make the effort to dig some things up (on an old computer though). In short the results we discovered were a bit counterintuitive (surprised me) and indeed as you go further out, compensation is swamped by velocity effects and becomes a small player (see in the spreadsheet above the calculated predictions - our results mimicked this too). No doubt it is there and I agree at long range it is the sum of all the small things. I personally like to be on the right side of the curve but it is far more important to get velocity spread down. Compensation cannot make up for large velocity variation. (and this is in no way saying it doesn't exist).

As Peter mentioned we have hypothesized that it could be a far bigger effect with long whippy barrels and I suspect we need to get down towards the old 303 barrel velocities (so maybe room in FTR for slow 230 grain projectiles for it to work) to allow the larger upward vertical pulse to reach muzzle at same time as the projectile. BUT this will then be unusable at short range.

Conversely though a fully compensated load at 300-500 yards that has low velocity spread will work well all the way out.

I will come back to this later - hopefully with diagrams and spreadsheets but I need to set up a photo upload website again (and don't have much time)
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Re: Compensation Tuning Again?.......... Sorry!

Post by DaveMc »

OK here are a couple of graphs to try and explain - this is similar to seen in above excel example and looks the same pattern as seen in Williada's short range load testing as well. If I could relate the chrono speeds to individual shots in that picture we could predict elevations all the way out as well.

Image

At short range the sinusoidal curves are obvious. This translates to the classic "audette" ladder tuning graph as seen in the 300-500 yard chart.



Image

As you go further and further out the inflections are still there but they get swamped by height changes due to velocity variations alone.

Next break I will give some examples of typical velocity spreads (say 10,20 and 40 fps) at various ranges.
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Re: Compensation Tuning Again?.......... Sorry!

Post by williada »

Dave, I appreciate you taking the time. I 100% agree with you about the velocity and compensation trade-off and in that sense see compensation as one of the small factors in total. Its good to see Peter predict the results. I merely confirmed results from testing in the 1980's and based some of my experiments about what Percy told me and he personally new the Fultons who were exploring this back in the 1920's and much later, so I tried to follow up their work too.

Peter, they were of course using those long skinny barrels in the old days. Barrels I reprofiled in the 1980's, tended to flex too much and waggle at the muzzle. Then being button rifled, the buggers opened up. I gave it away due to time constraints. Maybe cutting back to 20-21inches like they did in Percy's day would be better. He told me that their effort was trial and error cutting the barrel back for the English ammunition on one campaign. Anyway they still had to manage large groups and that is an art in itself. So, I think cutting back to 20 inches would not get you past the transonic range and you would have to rely on a faster twist rate which in itself introduces problems as bullets don't tend to overturn.

With modern gear and reloads we manage small groups, and so compensation may well be relevant to increasing super centre count. It has to be seen in its marginal utility.

At least one thing, the theories have been proven in practice because we have conducted the experiments in isolation.

Project Penumbra's main goal was to find the barrel with the internal dimensions best suited to the old Sierra 155 which is no longer used. Which we did. I volunteered my services as did a few others who hand sorted thousands of rounds for the Australian Team back then. Could I say in closing that a team practice in Bendigo used the reject ammunition at 500 yards with a chronograph and the 1000 yard shoot with the same ammo, shots lost to elevation were predicted by the 500 yard compensation test and I brought this to the attention of the shooters at the end of the day. I still have those 500 yard plots.

I'm not sure whether what we are discussing is of much interest to others except for those people who want to know why? I am happy for others to build on what we know as we have built on others experiences who have gone before us. I'm also sure this site is read by international shooters. I once had the Captain of a US team contact me. I remember the winged keel. :D
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Re: Compensation Tuning Again?.......... Sorry!

Post by aaronraad »

williada wrote:Project Penumbra's main goal was to find the barrel with the internal dimensions best suited to the old Sierra 155 which is no longer used. Which we did. I volunteered my services as did a few others who hand sorted thousands of rounds for the Australian Team back then. Could I say in closing that a team practice in Bendigo used the reject ammunition at 500 yards with a chronograph and the 1000 yard shoot with the same ammo, shots lost to elevation were predicted by the 500 yard compensation test and I brought this to the attention of the shooters at the end of the day. I still have those 500 yard plots.


What were the results for the internal barrel dimensions and were they able to make any correlations between these barrel dimensions and those of the projectile?
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