308 Lapua Cases

[Bindi2]

Ned. When you buy Winchester TR ammo they are not soft loaded and the cases last a long time. The same with new unprimed brass.
Longranger. I didn't get 4 firings and yes you are right something was wrong and it was the brass plain and simple it was crap and over priced as well.

[Matt P]

Ned. When you buy Winchester TR ammo they are not soft loaded and the cases last a long time. The same with new unprimed brass.
Longranger. I didn't get 4 firings and yes you are right something was wrong and it was the brass plain and simple it was crap and over priced as well.

It may well be with your barrel, your batch of powder and your scales, 46 grains is a hot load and has nothing to do with the brass, 46 grains in a winchester case would produce less pressure as the capacity is bigger, that combined with a fast lot of powder and a tight barrel.
Matt P

[Bindi2]

Ned. When you buy Winchester TR ammo they are not soft loaded and the cases last a long time. The same with new unprimed brass.
Longranger. I didn't get 4 firings and yes you are right something was wrong and it was the brass plain and simple it was crap and over priced as well.

It may well be with your barrel, your batch of powder and your scales, 46 grains is a hot load and has nothing to do with the brass, 46 grains in a winchester case would produce less pressure as the capacity is bigger, that combined with a fast lot of powder and a tight barrel.
Matt P

The chronny gave me the same or close enough to be called the same across Rem, winnie and lap. 46gns is under ADI max load by 1gn for 155gn pills. I work up all loads using .2 gn increases plotting the velocities. All 3 showed similar graphs. The lap brass is the only lot that has since shown signs I don't like. I also shoot 175gn Bergers with 45.4gns of 2208 in winnie cases with no issues. I use a beam balance and trickle up. I have two rifles with two very different barrels and the lap has failed in both. FS and FO

[higginsdj]

The chronny gave me the same or close enough to be called the same across Rem, winnie and lap. 46gns is under ADI max load by 1gn for 155gn pills. I work up all loads using .2 gn increases plotting the velocities. All 3 showed similar graphs.

That is interesting. I get huge variation (70-90 fps) between my Win cases and Lap cases using the same load, pills and primers.

[Bindi2]

That is interesting. I get huge variation (70-90 fps) between my Win cases and Lap cases using the same load, pills and primers.[/quote]

I am basicly sea level. From a previous inland life I know that there was more variations some quite severe. Having learnt the hard way from those experiences I test check more often and was more than a little surprised at first with the lap brass.
They all gave single digit spread with nearly 50fps between fastest and slowest spread.

[Barry T]

Hello , I have dumped 100 lapua 308cases after 4 firings, the cases started to separate or crack , only with 45.9 grains of ar2208 , I even had one stuck up the breach , which I got out lucky , and primers where flat as . I bought a new batch ( stupit me ) , now only using 45.0 of 2208 , but the primers are still flat ,but only on some . and I double check my loads . so this will be the last time for lapua, sticking too Remington next time , just as good as any another case .

[AlanF]

Okay, that proves it - everyone should throw out all their Lapua brass. Reluctantly, I'll take it off your hands. Is anyone having problems with Bergers?

[williada]

I don't know if Bindi or Barry get their supplies from the same source or have the same armourer but it is unusual for the Lapua cases to behave like this. The flattened primers are indicative of high pressure. It could be that the brass is soft and the cases are not gripping the walls with all the pressure thrust into the head. Hardness testing would determine that. Its unlikely the wall thickness is too thick and so increase the pressures. Again the cases need to be sectioned and measured. There is the possibility that the powder is not what it is supposed to be. It might be that this needs further investigation from the official sources of the NRAA if there is any risk to shooter safety just to be sure. David.

[saum2]

Have to agree with David, seems like something else is wrong as a lot of TR shooters use aprox 46gns or more of 2208 for years without this type of issue. I would be worried too if i had to throw out Lapua brass after only 4 firings. How's the head space? & resized brass head space?

[Brad Y]

What worries me is after 4 firings they are starting to crack for Barry. Cases dont just crack- especially lapua. Usually there is a reason for it, and I would guess its excessive headspace from over sizing or a chamber issue. If primers are flat that may not necessarily be a sign of pressure. Measure the case head with a micrometer and monitor expansion. Too much pressure your case heads will expand and the primer pockets will become loose. It happens with the case head design on a 284 using heavy bullets. People know that pushing the cases for velocity is asking for trouble in that caliber. And by sticking with what is known accurate at safe pressures, people have seen some of the most consistent accuracy in the world. My point here being if your losing cases too fast, then a) switch to lapua palma 308 brass that can handle pressure better, or b) load and shoot where accuracy is in the rifle and excessive pressure doesnt affect the cases. Remember the 308 isnt a 300WM, dont try to make it something that it isnt. Sometimes a slow barrel, cooler batch of powder, different batches of projectiles can all affect your velocity.

I have used 308 palma cases for a year shooting FS, then necked them down and fireformed them to 260 improved where they shot brilliantly. In fact I sold a heap of that batch of cases to a shooter that bought my 260 reamer and dies. I reckon they would have seen easily 30 firings each over the years. Primer pockets still tight and brass is in great condition.

Alan- will take any lapua palma brass if you score some from your above post

[Brad Y]

The other variable is 30 cal barrels. There are still 2975/3065 barrels around Im pretty sure. Add a tight barrel, a hot batch of powder, fat projectiles, maybe some carbon fouling thrown in the mix and your asking for pressure problems.

[williada]

Brad, I thought about the headspace issue, that's why it may not be the problem unless they have the same armourer and a setup mistake has been duplicated. Headspace is not the real bogy if cases fire-form to the chamber and neck sizing is used. If the brass is full length resized from a bigger chamber then the overwork issue may be a factor in cracking the bases, but it is unlikely in 4 firings. Also, I have tested tight barrels as low as .3065" with both factory .308W and Lapua brass and there were no issues with similar loads.

What I do and it is an important measure of high pressure, without any pressure gauges attached, is measure the case head for expansion before and after during load testing. Anything greater than .0015" is a limit. I do not like to see more than .001" in a Match chamber for what its worth for long term use of the brass. David.

[Brad Y]

Im 99.9% sure they dont use the same gunsmith as they are on opposite sides of the country- Bindi is one of us west siders!

I once helped out a fellow club shooter, who was having problems with his 308. I even went to his house to help him sort out his reloading gear. He had his body die way too far down and his 308 cases were coming out looking more like a 6.5x47L with a 30 cal neck. Measuring his other fired brass and adjusting his dies got the problem fixed and his rifle was humming leading up into our easter shoot. He did have to dump a few cases though that had been oversized a few times. When some of them started cracking, the rest couldnt have been far off! Alot of people full length size their cases so they are easy to chamber. But full length dies dont usually come with comparators to measure the case sizing. Its very easy to go wrong with just a set of paper instructions. My point being if people dont know the exact amount of sizing they are doing, there is every chance they could be way overdoing it and leading to headspace/case separation problems. I do agree lapua is (in the cases that I have measured) smaller in capacity than winchester and there may be higher pressure with lapua cases and using the same charge. If I were shooting large primer cases, fully prepped winchester would probably be the way to go as price wise its alot cheaper. But end of the day the small primer brass has been a real god send in this caliber when looking for a bit more safe velocity. Just a matter of doing a full and thorough load development again.

David, I had a krieger 298/3065 and it gave that nice shiny circle on the head from brass starting to flow into the ejector plunger from a known 46.2gr load. Backed it off to 45.8 and all was fine. Accuracy just as good and velocity pretty similar. Another barrel with 300/308 dimensions shoots the 46.2gr load fantastic as well but wasnt as good with the lower charge. This is a remington 700 action chambered with a M-852 reamer.

I dont think pushing pressure in a rifle is a very clever thing to do. We have all stoked a gun up before to see what it could do but there is no point financially wasting cases all the time, nor is it worth risking a rifle blowing up in your face.

[williada]

Brad you just might have hit the nail on the head. Some people might not be aware of how to setup their dies. Perhaps I assumed they did. It would certainly overwork the brass and I agree some people might not be aware of pressure problems. Certainly taking measurements of the case head gives a little early warning before you see it on the primer. I am with you all the way with the pressure problem. The reason the English went to the Bisley chamber was due to tight barrels. So the actual chamber and throat diameter and of course jump and leed angle are the keys to managing the pressure. Once the bullet is swaged down in the throat by the appropriate chamber the pressure problem goes away in a tight barrel. Now we have three factors. Is it the brass, the reloading technique or is it the armouring? We can't be sure because we don't have the gear in front of us.

There are quite a few possibilities as to cause and there is nothing more certain than taking proper measurements of the cases before and after reloading and checking the chamber and barrel. I suppose I always err on the side of safety and just like to be sure and would like to see these cases tested for hardness, sectioned and measured in three states; (a) new; (b) fired and (c) resized, a loaded round without powder or primer and a sample of the powder to determine burning rate and have the configuration of the rifle determined for headspace and chamber dimensions. Someone at the local level might like to help them out.

There is obviously a real role for club level education here if reloading is the problem. The NRAA evaluation only takes place after blow-up. We need to be more proactive in assisting people. If a level of competency cannot be reached by some, maybe that angle has to be looked at as well. David.

[Bindi2]

My cases were only neck sized using a Lee collet neck sizing die. There was no cracks only head expansion beyond what I have ever seen in Winchester cases with loose pockets. I don't have problems with my F L S dies in any calibre I also form other calibres particularly 303 based cases. My smith has at least four chambers on this reamer and my second rifle is from another country, so I don't think the chamber is at fault. Remember I said one other club member had issues and dumped brass.