Inaccurate scales..

[AlanF]

...What scales do you use Alan?...

I'm sure Barry and DaveMc are correct about good quality digital scales - I've never had them so can't comment. DaveMc pretty much describes my process in his post. I throw a slightly underweight charge from a Lee (cheap) thrower directly into the pan on a Redding No 2 balance beam scale, then trickle up to weight. In my experience its very rarely more than 0.02gn wrong, because for important shoots, I check weigh by moving the pan from the Redding onto a GemPro (cheap) digital which reads to 0.02gn. It rarely exceeds 0.02gn difference charge to charge, and if not I add or remove a kernel. I wouldn't recommend a GemPro used on its own. They can't be trickled onto, and readings tend to wander depending on temperature, power supply etc. Other low priced digitals are probably similarly afflicted. I've also used a Chargemaster briefly, and would only recommend them if accuracy is not critical, although there are various mods around that claim to improve their accuracy.

[johnk]

I can never get my head around this talk of capability of scales of indicating the same weight (mass?) from loading session to loading session. I don't think that I'm out of step with mainstream when I say that the loads I use are the result of a test session - I choose to use the load that appears to best get the job done. However, from there on, I know that I'm using the same load time after time as my practice is to make a test weight of identical registration to the selected load. From there on, I don't rely on my scales to indicate the same value; I just use the value on the day that equates to the reading for the test weight, whether or not it might indicate a milligram or so off what it read last time. If I want to fiddle around that value, then I I just increase or decrease by my chosen increment from the "standard" load.

The one thing I believe is absolutely necessary on (lower end to mid range) electronic scales is to allow the pan to tare on the scale each cycle, then convey the power to the pan in a separate container. That way, my scale isn't challenged to tare & evaluate the load simultaneously, and I have absolute control over the possibility of scale drift. Likewise, I force the scale to evaluate every increment I add to the pan by gently touching it after I drop in the increment, just in case it might "perceive" the increment to be within the readability limit.

[Brad Y]

Im only getting away at the moment with a set of rangemaster 750 RCBS electronic scales. Cheap but Ive done a few things to ensure they work consistently. Put a filter on the power supply, have removed flouro lighting from immediately around it and dont run any other electrical devices while using them. They also get cleaned with a soft squirt of compressed air to stop any dust affecting the results and they get calibrated before the first charge is thrown. The calibration weights have been checked and also my powder pan has been weighed on a quality set of scales as well. The other two things I do is let it warm up for at least half an hour before using them, easy to do while your priming cases. And I tare the pan initially, then throw the charge into the pan, set it onto the scales and trickle up. Its easy to count the number of granules it takes for the scale to increase by 0.1gr so I count them each time. Once I have the correct charge I pour the powder into a case then put the empty pan back onto the scales. When it shows zero the case then gets a projectile seated. Anytime I load all the doors are closed to the shed to ensure no wind drafts can affect it. Following all this, they dont drift in weight enough to really matter. With a wide node in the rifle there is some compensation there as to how accurate the powder charge must be measured. Of course I work for the best accuracy possible in charge weight, but have come to the conclusion that for now Im better off reading the on range conditions better.

[Pommy Chris]

Ok I decided to load this morning as it was really still air. I just finished loading 25 rounds and it took me less than an hour and I had to finish some case prep too so much quicker
Am I totally happy? Hmm no, but I cant complain for 100 bucks delivered, the scale is a HA2-60a off ebay. There is an annoying zero upwards drift meaning quite a bit of use of the tare button. I took notice of the pans minus value on the scale and this seemed to be a good indicator of any drift though so it was easy enough to keep an eye on. I used the Chargemester to throw the load as before dribbling the last bit myself and then I tipped the load in one into the dish on the new scale. I quickly chucked out the plastic dish it is useless and I am using my 10 10 dish instead. I added powder if needed to bring it up to exactly the weight (on new scale), then I tipped the load into another dish, checked the zero and tipped it back again to verify it was still correct which it was so I soon eliminated this step. In the end I realized I just needed to check the new scale was still zero and tip the load on. Again using another scale showed up some big errors with the Chargemaster normally around the usual 0.3 of a grain as usual low. Now I suppose I have a big green expensive powder thrower as i cant trust if for anything else.
I am not convinced you could accurately dribble on this HA2-60 scale, but if you have a powder thrower you would not need to anyway.
Will I buy the A and D scale? Yes but not right away. Is this a good budget scale for accurate reloading? Hmm maybe if I dont wear the tare button out, only time will tell.
Not I better do some work I suppose.
Chris

[AndrewP]

Chris,
I have used a Chargemaster for the past 7 years or so and found it accurate and reliable.

The following I gleamed from the Internet and discussions with Marty Lobert:-
You need to run it on a 12VDC regulated power supply ( Jarcar sell a PowerTech Plus Switchable AC adaptor) or a small 12V battery such as a motor cycle style. Ensure the polarity is correct, + on the centre pin. The original 60Hz USA adaptor indicates 9VDC but that seems to slow the final trickle down to a stop at times. Make sure the scale section is level, front to back and sideways.

"The scale is fully adjustable and there are many settings and that you can change. To enter the program mode pres EDIT MEM and ENTER at the same time. After making an adjustment pres ENTER to go to the next option. After the last setting the scale will reset and countdown. If you passed a setting you have to start from the beginning, there is no back button. Record any setting you are going to alter before doing so as there is no factory default you can return to.

This is the list of settings that you can make to your scale, for some of the functions I do not have detailed instructions as to what they do, and would recommend that you do not change them:
HSB_A1 (15.68) Grains under target weight to go from full to high speed for low weight
HSB_B1 (3.42) Grains under target weight to go from high to slow speed low weight
BSP_C1 (1.08) Grains under target weight to go from slow to final trickle speed low weight

MSP_A2 (39.20) Grains under target weight to go from full to high speed for medium weight
MSP_B2 (8.55) Grains under target weight to go from high to slow speed medium weight
MSP_C2 (2.25) Grains under target weight to go from slow to final trickle speed medium weight

SSP_A3 (196.00) Grains under target weight to go from full to high speed for heavy weight

SSP_B3 (42.75) Grains under target weight to go from high to slow speed heavy weight
SSP_C3 (11.32) Grains under target weight to go from slow to final trickle speed heavy weight


SEL (065)
F_A (050) Grains for a Heavy Charge
M_A (035) Grains for a Medium charge
S_A (006) Grains for a slow charge
W_F (200) Rotation for Full speed
W_M (100) Rotation for Medium speed
W_S (036) Rotation for slowest speed

S_F (012) Scale sensitivity timeout time in m/s fast speed
S_M (024) Scale sensitivity timeout time in m/s medium speed
S_S (128) Scale sensitivity timeout time in m/s slow speed.

FR1 (040) ?
FS1 (016) ?
FR2 (080) ?
SR1 (032) ?
SS1 (008) ?
SR2 (040) ?"

The ones you are mainly interested in are the 6 that follow "SEL (065)"
I currently use F_A 090, M_A 050, S_A 010, W_F 200, W_M 100, W_S 036. These settings work well for me with ADI powders between 32 -40 gn with hardly ever an overthrow.
For 50 - 55 gn I add a short piece of thick shake straw to the dispenser tube. Occasionally I will get an overthrow in this range.
If there is any overthrow I think it is important to tip it back into the powder container and let the cycle start again so it is always weighing up to a particular value. In removing a few grains to weigh down to a value errors could occur.

If loading for a Queens, about every 15 or so throws I will recheck the weight on set of Dillon electronic scales and never seem to get a variation.

By adjusting those 6 parameters you should find a setting that will suit the range you are working in

Hope this may be of some help.

Andrew Pearce

[Pommy Chris]

Hi Andrew,
Thanks for the detailed response. I will get the regulated supply as you suggested and also one for my new scale too. I dont think the setting changes will help much though as if I want 45.6 I set the chargemaster to 45.4 and trickle the last 0.2 in myself so I never get over throws. I recently set my scale level using a bubble level and I already have the straw fitted. The problem seems to be maybe in the auto tare as I can throw directly a weight say 45.4 and measure that on the other scale and it measures up to 0.3 of a grain down (say one in 6 or 7 throws the rest are not far off). If I then put the pan back on the chargemaster it still measures correct, but if you cancel the program and put the dish on the scale so the chargemaster zeros itself then put the powder back in the dish it then measures low like on the other scale. Maybe there is something in programming that slows the auto tare?
The Chargemaster is only supposed to be accurate though to +- 0.1 of a grain so in reality that is 0.2g which is still a lot, I am though getting 0.3 and usually down which is quite annoying, my friend in his tests was getting similar results to me so I cant help thinking this is quite common. A regulated supply cant hurt I will for sure give it a go.
The new scale has eliminated many of the problems as I can now check each throw and I can be sure my loads are close to what they should be. Today I was loading 45.6 of o6h and I was reading between 45.59-45-61 for each throw depending on the size of the kernels I put on to bring the new scale up to weight. While I was testing each throw the Chargemaster was throwing another load so it actually woked quite well, it was only frequent taring of the new scale that was a bit annoying. Maybe when I get a regulated supply for the new scale it will improve in this area as right now it is running on batteries and the scale auto turns off after a few mins of no use while running on batteries so it is impossible to warm up the scale. According to the instructions the scale wont power down when connected to a psu.
Thanks again
Chris

[Pommy Chris]

...What scales do you use Alan?...

I'm sure Barry and DaveMc are correct about good quality digital scales - I've never had them so can't comment. DaveMc pretty much describes my process in his post. I throw a slightly underweight charge from a Lee (cheap) thrower directly into the pan on a Redding No 2 balance beam scale, then trickle up to weight. In my experience its very rarely more than 0.02gn wrong, because for important shoots, I check weigh by moving the pan from the Redding onto a GemPro (cheap) digital which reads to 0.02gn. It rarely exceeds 0.02gn difference charge to charge, and if not I add or remove a kernel. I wouldn't recommend a GemPro used on its own. They can't be trickled onto, and readings tend to wander depending on temperature, power supply etc. Other low priced digitals are probably similarly afflicted. I've also used a Chargemaster briefly, and would only recommend them if accuracy is not critical, although there are various mods around that claim to improve their accuracy.

Peter Burg (F open) at our rang has done extensive mods to his 10 10 and he rang me tonight and is bringing a few loads he has thrown on his modded 10 10 I will be curious to see how close they are linear wise to the digital, very curious actually as Peter is a very good shooter. It might be the weekend though before I see him.
Regards
Chris

[Pommy Chris]

...What scales do you use Alan?...

I'm sure Barry and DaveMc are correct about good quality digital scales - I've never had them so can't comment. DaveMc pretty much describes my process in his post. I throw a slightly underweight charge from a Lee (cheap) thrower directly into the pan on a Redding No 2 balance beam scale, then trickle up to weight. In my experience its very rarely more than 0.02gn wrong, because for important shoots, I check weigh by moving the pan from the Redding onto a GemPro (cheap) digital which reads to 0.02gn. It rarely exceeds 0.02gn difference charge to charge, and if not I add or remove a kernel. I wouldn't recommend a GemPro used on its own. They can't be trickled onto, and readings tend to wander depending on temperature, power supply etc. Other low priced digitals are probably similarly afflicted. I've also used a Chargemaster briefly, and would only recommend them if accuracy is not critical, although there are various mods around that claim to improve their accuracy.

You got me thinking,
I have asked a member of our club (Peter Berg) to bring some of his loads in. He has a modded 10 10. He has sharpened the knife edge with a diamond file and done something to the groove too, he has also reduced the magnetic damping. He is going to bring a few samples of powder he has loaded in later this week it will be interesting how accurate his scales are.
Chris

[AlanF]

Sounds like Peter Berg knows a few good tricks. When my first Redding No 2 showed signs of wear I bought another one. You could buy about 6 of them for the price of a digital of equal reliability.

[DannyS]

Wanted to buy, used chargemaster $100

Cheers
Danny

[Pommy Chris]

Wanted to buy, used chargemaster $100

Cheers
Danny

Haha Mine is my powder thrower now be it a rather expensive one. I do trust it for farm stuff, but never again for any F class bullets.
Chris

[Pommy Chris]

Sounds like Peter Berg knows a few good tricks. When my first Redding No 2 showed signs of wear I bought another one. You could buy about 6 of them for the price of a digital of equal reliability.

Results are in Peter gave me three vile's today at the range which he had weighed on his modded 10 10. They were written on them 45.2 of o8. I weighed all three on my new digital scales the first I measured to be 45.22 the second was also 45.22 and the third was, wait for it.. 45.22!!!! Clearly Peter is doing some very accurate loading indeed so this proves that you can load very very accurate charges using a balance beam scale. There is a bit of a but though.. Peter told me he only loads when it is really still and if it is damp he puts the heater on for about an hour to dry the air in the room, he also said he spends hours reloading. I measured his loads on the digital scale in a couple of minutes and most of that time was trying to get the vile's open so the digital is also accurate and far far quicker. You can load accurately very it seems with a balance beam scale, but you are going to spend a lot longer in the loading room.
Chris

[plumbs7]

Hi mate , hope u have plenty of rain for ur cattle . We are feeding ours and praying for rain.
I have a charge master and I love it . Had great success with mine . At the latest OPM did well with it , part from shooting the wrong target 3 times in 2 details!doh! Also 6 Fps spread in my 308 after tweaking my old load . I use the Maccas straw theory . But I also wait for the weight to show up again after the beap. Thus all are 46.5 gr . If u r saying the sclaes are lying themselves , well that's bad . To throw a 4 it has to be real slow . More than .2 of a grain ! That's a minute and a half drop! Or about 60-70 Fps drop or more ! Another reason to go that low is gripping the gun to hard with ur trigger finger hand . Need nice loose hands .
Have u chronied ur load lately. My usual laid of 46.2 started showing vertical into the 5 ring just of late . Chronied it and had 30 Fps spread . Upped it a few .1 grains and presto!
Was also chating to one of our top Lady shooters at a recent OPM and she was saying how 2208 has needed a little more charge in her loads to a year or so ago.

Maybe a load tuning issue . Cheers

[Pommy Chris]

No rain yet, but today it is overcast, but too cold for rain in my opinion. Not feeding yet but I cant sell my Bulls as nobody has any grass so it is costing me big time. I shot on Sunday using the bullets done with my new scale. My first round I got 59.1, it was bad mirage and I later realized I had not set my parallax correctly, I must have focused on the mirage. The second round I had spent a bit more time head bobbing and the parallax I realized was well out in my first round so I corrected it.The second round I scored 60.7, not bad after keeping two 6's for sighters. I did some loading yesterday with the new scale using the Charge master as a thrower. I set the Charge Master to throw 45.5 and then dumped this onto the other scale. The other scale displayed everything from 45.3 to 45.6 for my Charge Master 45.5 so the Charge Master is not accurate enough. If I reset the Charge Master it then agrees with the new scale that it was wrong, ie not 45.5 so if the new scale tells me the Charge Master threw 45.3 instead of 45.5 if I reset the Charge Master and reweigh the load the Charge Master then tells me it is 45.3 also. My friend is getting similar results with his Charge Master too. The low 4 I got I agree is not just 0.3 of a grain lower, but much more and I am not sure how the Charge Master threw so low as in testing it has not thrown such a large low yet. All the same the primer in the bullet does not lie which was concave inward indicating a very low load. Maybe that error was just a one off, but using two scales now it cant really happen again anyway so I am not too worried. My loading now has actually got quicker with two scales. I used to dribble the final 0.2 of a gain on the Charge Master myself but if I am rechecking the load there is no point. I simply set the Charge Master to 45.5, then it beeps and shows its reading, I take the pan off and dump it onto the pan on the new scale. I add what is needed, if needed to get my 45.6 and then I take the pan off and if the new scales minus pan figure is correct I put this load in the bullet case. If the minus is not correct (happens form time to time, very slight though) I tip the load into my spare pan, retare the new scale and recheck the load. Just me being anal really as the error here has never been more than 0.03 of a grain so probably not worth the trouble ie 45.57 instead of 45.60, but it is only one in maybe 5 charges and it only takes 10 seconds extra maybe to do so I dont mind.
The Charge Master is only supposed to be accurate to plus or minus 0.1 of a gain which is 0.2 of a grain in reality, but that seems to be on a good day as I am getting more than that sometimes. It is true that the Charge Master can throw many times correctly, but it only takes one point to loose a comp. At 1000 yards 0.3 of a grain might mean the difference between just a 6 or just in the 5 ring. My standard deviation was quite large before around 30 odd fps. I have not yet done it again since getting the new scale, but going on the errors I found it should be much better now.
I hope it rains soon for both of us
Chris