Berger Bullet Seating - accuracy problems????

[plumbs7]

?.......... but there could be fouling going on. I have only put about 1400-1500 rounds through the barrel, but I have got into a habit of not cleaning the barrel for up to 4, 5 or 6 matches - it didn't seem to affect accuracy, in fact I thought the gun liked being a little dirty, so maybe I overdid it. I might ask Matt P to use his borescope to have a look.

My money is on the Carbon ......multiple layers of it hard baked on with copper in between like a special lasagne !!

I would agree , u can get away with not cleaning IMO with a light clean for about 100 rounds . Then maybe bore brite with an undersized nylon brush and a patch with the paste on the patch only. Important not to have contact with the nylon brush . Otherwise it laps streaks all through the barrel, hey Tony!

I've found doing just doing at least the 6" forward of the chamber really shrinks groups! Like I think it was Danny s just said . So many variables !

Edit" was thinking how many times I've heard people at 1500 rounds say their barrel has gone . I have a Lilja still going strong after 1600 plus rounds !
A club mate of mine in sheehane .284 says she has about 2500-3000 rounds on that barrel . And they do the same . Regards Graham.

[plumbs7]

In contrast , with my 7-08 AI I've been having the barrels too clean and not fowled enough. Which has given me vertical for the first few shots !

[Razer]

You should get at least 4000 accurate shots from a quality 308W barrel if you clean it properly.
I have several barrels that have exceeded that number in Fclass.
I have a Tobler barrel made by the late 'senior' Tobler which is 12 fluted. My youngest son started TR in 2002 and this barrel (screwed in in 2008) has now well over 8000 rounds through it.(I have 2 sister barrels to this one with high shot counts, one 12 fluted and one plain)
It has never been shot over 4 stages without a clean. It gets a good scrub with Hoppes via a bronze brush when 'cold'.
It is then left for 2 or 3 hours and patched out with 4x2 soaked in Hoppes, repeated with clean dry patches, then liberally dosed with Sweets oil on a nylon brush. It is patched out before shooting again and, it is spot on elevation from the first shot.

It has never been re-chambered or recrowned and the only adjustments have been to seating depth with the last adjustment made 3 years ago(was then 50 thous off the lands with HBC's and still holding perfect elevation). I rarely have to reload more than 20 cases from each weeks 2 stage shoot from this barrel.
At that same time I checked a Truflite barrel of mine shooting Sierra 2155's and it was also jumping 50 thous due to erosion, but was still accurate.
I currently shoot a Maddco barrel with Hybrids and Sierra 2156 projectiles both jumped 20 thous. Also a Pacnor seated the same depth. I am meticulous with keeping the throat clean by folding up a 4x2 and giving the throat a clean with a Hoppes patch on a Parker Hale jag, after normal cleaning and, the bore guide is removed.
I do not use Sweets 762 but occasionally use Boretec.
I have been shooting for over 60 years and only once have I re-crowned a barrel.
This amount of barrel life would obviously be unobtainable with FO calibres.
If a barrel is correctly fluted(not scalloped) and de-stressed, my belief is that it runs cooler and also draws the heat away from the throat area giving longer life.
Many others will disagree but, each to his own opinion.

The only major fouling issue that I have experienced was with a Truflite barrel I had fitted in 2006. I started shooting it with 2206H (just come on the market) with PMC mag primers. This barrel shot a straight 60 at 1000 yards but, by 800 shots went off tune. Long story but I believe that combination some how created harder than normal carbon which built up in the corners of the lands which I ultimately shifted with Milfoam.

Has any one else noticed that some powder/primer combinations create excessive fouling? My belief is that it does happen and is not always recognised so the blame is put on other unrelated issues.

[Barry Davies]

ONE recrown in 60 years Ray? That's one more than me.
Agree with everything you say--Don't think I have had a barrel that I have thrown out that has not fired 4000 rounds ( without crowning )
When a barrel " goes off " people tend to look in all the wrong places. There must be hundreds of good barrels lying around somewhere.
Important to clean after every day's shoot otherwise you are begging disaster. Three or four ranges is my limit, then clean.
Never have fouling problems, never have to " chase" the rifling out, and never rechamber. Sometimes I wonder what people do to their equipment that causes heartache?
Liberal use of a good bronze brush never hurt any barrel.
Liberal use of abrasive paste usually kills a barrel.
Never been guilty of crapping up a barrel with coatings ( moly etc )
Agree with Danny-- so many variables, but when you recognise just what are the IMPORTANT variables, life is considerably easier.
I still say the biggest variable we are faced with is PROJECTILE, and really think the manufacturers need to have a serious look at their QC-- it's lacking.

[sevenmil]

I agree Barry, projectiles are usually the issue in my experience (all other things being equal). In my case 1400-1500 rounds is not near enough to be the issue. Powder, cases, primers all the same - only variable has been changing projectiles (as I simply ran out of my good ones), so the likelihood is that this is probably the issue, so I'll just have to play around with seating depth.
I have actually tested HBCs and Bergers and all seem to have variable weights and ogive to base measurements. When I say variables, they are significant enough to cause accuracy issues unless they are separately batched. I have found Bergers to be a little more consistent within a batch, but quite different when compared to different batches.

Cleaning of the barrel might be an issue too, but I doubt it - just cleaned the barrel after two stages and it was pretty good.

We'll see how I go this weekend !

[sevenmil]

Well I backed off my seating die by 15 thou with the new projectiles. Scored 60.4 in my first stage on Saturday, but dropped 2 points in the second stage - what was interesting is that I was still getting elevation shots, but less than before. Even my 60.4 was a little messy, so I wasn't overly happy with my total score 118.7, but I think my assumptions might be right about seating depth and irregular pressure.

I am going to back the die back by another 4-5 thou, as the projectiles are just touching the free bore section of the chamber. Hopefully this will stop the elevation shots ?

[Brad Y]

Go straight back to the old seating depth you used (jump/touch/jam) and re chrony. If you need to maybe you might have to up or back off powder to go back to the original velocity.

[DenisA]

Sevenmil,

I've been caught out the same way that you have multiple times in the early days of my shooting. I won't try and diagnose your problem, but I'll let tell you about some experiences that I've had.

1. Every time I change a batch number of bullets and often powder, I have to at minimum go back to test the load at the short range which is where I develop them initially. Sometimes different batches take a different jam/jump to the batch before, never have I had to change the powder charge based on the bullet batch number. I have had change powder charge slightly just to re-centre in the node for powder batch differences.

2. Every time I load a batch of cartridges I leave them seated long. The night before I shoot I recheck the land position using the same bullet from the same batch number as what I've loaded. I'll then seat the number of cartridges I'm going to use the next day.
I've found that every batch has a slightly different shaped ogive and that changes 2 things, the position that the comparator sits on the ogive and the position that the bullet seating stem sits on the ogive. Both in comparison to the point that the ogive contacts the lands. So its not just comparator reading that you luck out on.
The reason that I recheck my land position before each shoot is that when they move un-noticed you get caught out badly and grouping ability can be severely reduced. Within the first few hundred rounds they move the most and then start to settle. Depending on calibre, I find approximately .001" - .002" every 200 to 400 rounds is realistic. Lands need to be chased, especially with hotter cartridges and faster wearing chambers.

3. Regarding cleaning. With a clean barrel I'll get some vertical with my .284W, it takes about 15 rounds and then tightens up to match level. It will shoot with that accuracy up to 150 rounds. I haven't let it go further to find out when it drops off. I think the important thing regarding cleaning is to find a realistic margin that the barrel likes to operate in and maintain the barrel cleanliness in that zone so that you don't get caught with fouling. I clean my barrels before each practice weekend so that it is fouled for the following club competition weekend and any following PM's.

4. I've gotten so over the difference in bullet batch numbers and hate having to waste bullets and barrel life re-tuning that at the beginning of this year, I purchased a barrel life's worth of bullets for each calibre that I shoot. Expensive in one hit, but I was going to spend the money anyway. I've alleviated the problem that your having and I'm not chasing projectiles prior to events where I see a lot of folks are at the moment. This was advice that I was given quite a while ago. Took me a while to bite the bullet.

Even if changing to a new bullet batch doesn't throw your existing tune out of the accuracy node, it may push it to the lower or upper edge. You might use your old settings and get away with it on a moderate climate day and then get caught out on a cooler or hotter day. When changing batches of anything, its better just to re-confirm your node and that your still sitting in the middle of it.

I keep records of measurements such as land position, bullet dimension/batch number, seating depth and much more for every batch that I load and seat. I think its important not to guess and start winding seating dies around without knowing with certainty exactly where its putting the bullet compared to the lands based on your tune. It's made my tuning life much easier.

[sevenmil]

Thanks Brad Y and DenisA, all really useful advice. I have actually never used a crony, so I actually don't know what speed my bullets are travelling at. Never thought it would be a major problem, but sounds like I need to pull my finger out and get more serious.

I have actually been buying large batches of projectiles, but not a barrel's life worth, so that is a good idea though.

DenisA, now that I think about it, my vertical shots settled down last Saturday from about shot 16 onward believe it or not, so you may have a point there too.

Back to the drawing board….

[KHGS]

Thanks Brad Y and DenisA, all really useful advice. I have actually never used a crony, so I actually don't know what speed my bullets are travelling at. Never thought it would be a major problem, but sounds like I need to pull my finger out and get more serious.

I have actually been buying large batches of projectiles, but not a barrel's life worth, so that is a good idea though.

DenisA, now that I think about it, my vertical shots settled down last Saturday from about shot 16 onward believe it or not, so you may have a point there too.

Back to the drawing board….

If a barrel takes more than one or two shots to settle after cleaning, you have not found the correct cleaning method for that barrel! I would suggest that one of your problems may be that you are not using the right oil after cleaning, assuming you are getting ALL the carbon out when you clean. Inadequate cleaning may remove copper traces, but only remove some of the carbon resulting in an uneven distribution of carbon. If you use a solvent when cleaning, you cannot "lightly" clean, the fouling will not be evenly removed thus causing "settling" problems. Some oils that are used after cleaning can present settling problems too, good old Sweet's Oil is by far the best I have found for oiling out after cleaning.
If you are convinced that a "light" clean is what you want I suggest you bronze brush with a carburettor cleaner & patch out immediately. Hoppes #9 is good for this too as it is a very mild solvent. If "lightly" cleaning with these products there is no need to oil out after patching. However that said, I do NOT believe in "light" cleaning, this is when "settling" problems will most likely present themselves & the "my barrel won't shoot clean" perception is borne.
I have been shooting rifles for 62 years,45 years of that competitively & I have never found a GOOD barrel that would not shoot clean. I have however had many good barrels go over my bench that "stopped" shooting after several hundred rounds only to have their former glory returned after I had properly "cleaned" them for their owners. Lack of proper cleaning ruins more barrels than than you might think.
Keith H.

[DenisA]

If a barrel takes more than one or two shots to settle after cleaning, you have not found the correct cleaning method for that barrel!
Keith H.

Hi Keith, that's an interesting angle that I had not thought of before. Thanks for your advice, I'll have to start re-checking with the borescope after cleans to see what's being achieved. Haven't done that for a little while.

I run some paste patches through every 400ish rounds. With the borescope I can see that the riflings back to clean metal. When I do this it still takes the same number of rounds to bring the tight grouping ability back.
What I have also noticed when I paste the barrels is that the POI for all my cartridges drops by at approximately 1 moa and takes a couple of details to come back up to my recorded settings.

Cheers,

[williada]

The key to long barrel life is keeping it clean. This allows the bullets to wear the barrel evenly. This cannot occur if the bore has an uneven distribution of carbon residue as Keith points out. This assumes the barrel does not have any other imperfections.

If people do not have a bore scope, then the best way to tell if you have got the barrel clean enough is to remove all the cleaning residues with metho. Next, wipe the barrel with a dry patch so the internals are squeaky clean. Then with a patch containing metho, run the cleaning rod up the bore and slowly draw it back, holding the rod with two fingers. You will feel any snagging if the barrel is not clean. Remember to re-oil the barrel as you don’t want a projectile fired through a dry barrel. Oil and wipe out with a dry patch to leave a hint of residue oil in the barrel pores. Without, a dry barrel can pick up more fouling. With, it simulates the powder residue to maintain group.

Good old fashioned boiling water and detergent and a bronze brush used on a regular basis still works. A mate who has competed in black powder events around the globe uses “Windex”, for the initial removal of black powder during events. That’s real carbon. I don’t think you can dissolve carbon, but any medium that penetrates under it like a surfactant enables it to be lifted off.

Some carbon in the critical areas in the throat can be more easily removed or caught in a sink if you trim your brass a tad shorter rather than allowing the trim length to go to the maximum of .005” from the end of the chamber. It seems easier to remove a shallower, broader bit of carbon than a high ridgey bit. In any case, a shallow deposit won’t affect accuracy if you have sufficient neck clearance and the amount of carbon flowing through to the throat is reduced.

We are still faced with the ceramic carbon in the throat which is baked in place or fills the voids of the gas erosion which you cannot avoid, which if it cannot be bronze brushed out has to have JB applied to it.

To this end, I nip up the chamber about every 700 rounds to remove any developing cavities which act as carbon traps. I also use HBN. While the gas erosion cannot be stopped, I feel carbon build up is reduced. Pressures are reduced, so is heat, which may mitigate against the ceramic carbon build up IMO. Before I nip the chamber up, I give the barrel a minor re-lap of the bore with a lead lap and touch up the top of the lands with a copper lap.

Some good barrels do take more than a couple of shots to settle despite their cleanliness. This can be temperature thing. I have posted barrel temperature, pressure and velocity graphs before from project Penumbra. Have you have ever turned the shower on, with the hot only, it gurgles for a while until things heat up then the flow is steady and quiet. A barrel can operate in much the same way. Those barrels that go straight into it tend to have an element of positive compensation otherwise the slower shots from cold barrels go low. The older generation knew that a hint of oil residue kept the elevation in check for the sighters. I think Jim Sweet documented that.

I am of the belief that most barrels will group tighter after four fouling shots to give a consistent surface of normal powder residue. There may not be fliers but the groups are tighter. However if you have used JB, etc or lapped or cleaned after a long duration the bore surface needs to be anointed with more shots which bed down those new micro fissures you have cut the work hardening off. Its similar to introducing Moly or HBN the first time until the micro pores are filled with the stuff the groups can be erratic the first time.

Some barrels are so smooth they pick up fouling like “Plasticene” sticks to glass. JB can be the culprit here too - another reason why I lap for the correct friction. It also partly explains why some barrels like to have a few shots through them to settle them as the powder residue surface is better than a super smooth one. If you have to use JB, or similar, focus in the throat and 3 inches before the muzzle where the fouling collects judiciously and checking with a bore scope or metho patch otherwise smoothing the whole barrel is not good. The muzzle fouling tends to occur as particles come out of the plasma state in the cooler section of the barrel. This is a bit different. It is also a good reason to match the burn rate of your powder to your barrel length for an efficient burn.
So the question is how regularly should you clean? After barrel break in of the throat reamer marks you have approximately 160 rounds of judicious cleaning while the barrel work hardens. That is clean after every shoot 12 shots. This sets your barrel up as the bullets lap the bore to dimension. After that, you can do a day’s shooting before a proper clean.

If you are shooting on a daily basis for a few days, it is not as important to do a thorough clean because the salts out of the powder residue don’t seem to form or take on moisture and electrolysis from metal particles left in situ is not long enough to do damage. There is a school of thought that does not clean in these situations until the chronograph numbers change. This is of course is established by prior testing over a few days. David.

[sevenmil]

Hi Keith,
Thank you for your input - when you talk about oiling the barrel, are you referring to storing the rifle for extended periods of time, or are you saying that you should lightly oil after every clean? I would have thought that would cause problems with velocity variations, given less friction during the first fouling shots - I understood that projectiles travelling down the barrel leave a very thin film of copper and that is what provides a consistent velocities, so oiling the barrel after each shoot I would have thought would cause serious inconsistencies in velocity and large groups, unless of course you are talking about storing your gun, in which case the oil protects the barrel from corrosion.

I have been cleaning my FClass 308 barrel properly every 100-150 rounds, but rarely oil it. I use Hopes solvent, bronze brush and Sweets 762 (Armonia) every now and then just to remove major build up of copper (which is actually not that great). Up until recently my gun was shooting 1/8 MOA groups, so I hope my recent grouping problems are just my projectiles not being seated properly and not my cleaning method…..

[KHGS]

If a barrel takes more than one or two shots to settle after cleaning, you have not found the correct cleaning method for that barrel!
Keith H.

Hi Keith, that's an interesting angle that I had not thought of before. Thanks for your advice, I'll have to start re-checking with the borescope after cleans to see what's being achieved. Haven't done that for a little while.

I run some paste patches through every 400ish rounds. With the borescope I can see that the riflings back to clean metal. When I do this it still takes the same number of rounds to bring the tight grouping ability back.
What I have also noticed when I paste the barrels is that the POI for all my cartridges drops by at approximately 1 moa and takes a couple of details to come back up to my recorded settings.

Cheers,

OIL, use Sweet's oil after, available at the Q-Store!!!
Keith H.

[KHGS]

Hi Keith,
Thank you for your input - when you talk about oiling the barrel, are you referring to storing the rifle for extended periods of time, or are you saying that you should lightly oil after every clean? I would have thought that would cause problems with velocity variations, given less friction during the first fouling shots - I understood that projectiles travelling down the barrel leave a very thin film of copper and that is what provides a consistent velocities, so oiling the barrel after each shoot I would have thought would cause serious inconsistencies in velocity and large groups, unless of course you are talking about storing your gun, in which case the oil protects the barrel from corrosion.

I have been cleaning my FClass 308 barrel properly every 100-150 rounds, but rarely oil it. I use Hopes solvent, bronze brush and Sweets 762 (Armonia) every now and then just to remove major build up of copper (which is actually not that great). Up until recently my gun was shooting 1/8 MOA groups, so I hope my recent grouping problems are just my projectiles not being seated properly and not my cleaning method…..

Never fire a round through a squeaky dry clean barrel!!! After cleaning, the barrel must be oiled out with an oily patch followed by one pass with a dry patch. This "conditions" the barrel & reduces the fouling from the first shot, remember that powder fouling contains graphite (among a lot of nasties) which is a dry lube. by oiling out as I have described is "mimicking" the lube from powder fouling. The first shot if fired dry will not be near point of impact & some number of shots will be required to "condition" the barrel, this may not even happen for a stage!! You should find with a correctly cleaned & "conditioned" barrel that the first shot should be at the bottom of the group & the next shot will be in the middle of the group!:)
Keith H.