SH Rule development (read the first post before commenting)

[Tim L]

OK, both valid points. I'm just trying to justify that chassis are allowed in standard but only if that is how they left the manufacturer. It has the potential to be a point of contention. Essentially we are saying "unmodified" is the overarching rule. The ONLY mods allowed would be fitting a suitable scope rail and a muzzlebrake only if the barrel was manufactured with a thread. No getting a thread cut if it wasn't?
A bipod is clearly an accessory, not a modification but the wording needs to be clear that we are talking the folding, straight leg, Harris type. Bolt on mloc single legs also allowed but only if the stock/chassis was manufactured to accept them. No popping the stock into a milling machine to make the slots.
It seems bags could still be a bit of a question mark. Soft squeezy for sure, not the heavy set formed bags like the bigfoot. Ears or not?
What about front and rear plates?

[AlanF]

Tim,

I think "Harris type" bipod is probably sufficient? And because its characterised as a light-weight class, how about just saying no plates but a rear bag with a max weight of something like 500-1000gm so you could have something with very light filling but stiff enough to give a steady support for the toe of the butt? I've always wondered why there is no weight-limit for F-Class bags and pedestal rests.

[PeteFox]

I've always wondered why there is no weight-limit for F-Class bags and pedestal rests.

Alan OT but you raised the issue, the reason is F-Class needs less rules not more, as per ICFRA.
Pete

[Tim L]

Tim,

I think "Harris type" bipod is probably sufficient? And because its characterised as a light-weight class, how about just saying no plates but a rear bag with a max weight of something like 500-1000gm so you could have something with very light filling but stiff enough to give a steady support for the toe of the butt? I've always wondered why there is no weight-limit for F-Class bags and pedestal rests.

Harris type,,, is probably perfect but:
I don't know how we stand putting it in our rules, not so much copyright but what could Atlas say/do?
What if Harris come up with some other style of folding bipod ,,,,with a coax stick on it for example?

I think the draft has a max bag weight of 1,5kg. It's a pretty arbitrary figure, seems reasonable.

As for F Class, keep the rules simple, accessories are not included in the weight of the gun. They defined what the gun must rest on, the remainder is open to ingenuity/ innovation. What gets me is why Australia put FStd on pedestals. In fact why Fstd at all. Both rhetorical questions btw.

[Tim L]

Apologies but back to the "factory standard" issue. ( and a bit on determining rifle value).
Taking it as written by Bat
"At the ROs request competitors must provide documentation that the rifle is factory produced in the form of a brochure, factory website, factory advertisement. (Note this is different to semi custom rifles being available "off the shelf" from gunshops such as Cleavers)

I put myself in the position of an RO receiving a challenge to a rifle.

A google of "Howa 1500 price" throws up the first issue. What appear to be factory issue Howas range from $725 to $790 at Horsley Park. What appear to be similar guns from Melbourne gunworks look to be $805-$850 with a $1500 "HS Precision". Then go to Cleavers for a barn full of stocks, barreled actions and semi customized.
Are Cleavers getting naked barreled actions from Howa? So I called them. The answer is yes. They arrive as a factory produced, naked barreled action with trigger and a hinged floor plate. It's not really surprising, PRS has made the chassis build popular, people don't want the plastic stock more often than they do, so retail has adjusted to meet demand. You buy the action and the stock you want/can afford.

This rather puts a spanner in the works
The Howa website is devoid of any tech specs.
OSA is the importer and the vast majority are indeed, barreled actions. The only full rifle that isn't is the HS precision mentioned above.

Screenshot_20220630-141530_Samsung Internet.jpg

So, with this new information, how do we draw the line?
My opinion, for what it's worth, is that we can not stop the arms race. As much as we would like to have an introductory, factory class, that animal no longer exists.

PS. Don't shoot the messenger, we need a solution.

[Tim L]

Moving on to Tikka. They do sell "factory rifles, but pricing in Au varies quite a bit. The T3x Tac A1 package is RRP'd at $3999 on the Baretta Au website but comes as a package with a bipod and hard carry case. So what is the rifle value? Harris bipod circa $400, hardcase (with Tikka on it) $284 or $484 with the current offer. So is this rifle under the price cap? I've not seen the bare rifle actually for sale for less than $3700 but here is a price that beat's that.
Does the price cap include fitted accessories? Scope, bipod, brake.

We could go on and on but what I'm finding is, while well intentioned, the desire to run a factory class is going to need something comparable to the ATO handbook to define.

[Tim L]

I can only come up with 2 solutions.
Factory
Any unmodified, repeating (mag fed) barreled action. Which can be dropped in any stock (given this is how they're now sold it would allow those with plastic stock the option to continue or replace the stock.
Tight weight limt eliminates most of the "sniper" rifles. 6.5 maybe 7kg.
No price cap because it's not possible to police effectively.
This means Howas and Tikkas, could be up against Hardy's. Is that an issue?
Limit the scope to 25x

Open is any modified barreled action with a heavier weight limit. Up to 8kg maybe. Anything heavier can shoot FTR or Open?

The other solution is to throw it to the wind, have 1 class up to say 8kg but must be shot from the shoulder, no rear bag.

Thoughts?

[AlanF]

I see the basic class as the main priority to get right ASAP. And I think its worth the extra effort of obtaining RRPs to ensure that it doesn't become yet another spending race. If a prospective new member on a limited budget turns up without a rifle, we need to be able to make recommendations that will get them a rifle which meets the rules, will be competitive out of the box, and will usually be obtainable off the shelf locally or online in a matter of days.

All factory manufactured rifles will have a RRP. The manufacturers will need to be contacted if it is not available from importers/distributors. If the RRP of a bare rifle is not obtainable as in the (unusual?) case you mention, then the complete product RRP would have to apply. The NRAA would need to maintain a database of rifle models and apply an indexation (for inflation) formula to the allowed maximum price. This database would need to be fully published on the NRAA website so people buying rifles would know what to buy to avoid going over the RRP limit.

[Tim L]

I'd only be guessing Alan but I'd guess you didn't actually look for any RRPs and beyond Lithgow it would be less of a guess to say you won't find any. Ive looked though. OSA don't give prices, Baretta do but they bear no resemblance to gun shop prices.
The main importers, OSA, Baretta and NOIA are buying abroad with fluctuating exchange rates and variable shipping costs, both of which impact import costs. None sell direct so that variable price gets another variable shipping cost added for domestic distribution. Different States impose differing process and requlations on dealers which also impact the over the counter price. I dare say dealers negotiate prices with importers and some import directly.
All this happens on relativly small batch orders throughout the year. How do you suggest they set an RRP.
You've been in the community for a few years. Rather than saying what the NRAA should do, could you suggest which paid position should take on this task or which unpaid member should do it for nothing?
We should be past the point of coming up with unworkable ideas and actually looking for workable solutions.

[AlanF]

I'd suggest that the Rules Portfolio director appoint a committee to do it Tim. That's how Bob Pedersen did things, and the F-Class rules were improved widely and significantly during his tenure. If as you say some RRPs are difficult to tie down, then some judgement could be used by the committee to derive a RRP from actual retail prices. And the output from the process would be a list of rifle models that qualify for the class, based on weight, action type etc. and RRP (actual or estimated). If the Committee remained in place, rifle models could be added to the list on an ongoing basis.

[cheech]

I can only come up with 2 solutions.
Factory
Any unmodified, repeating (mag fed) barreled action. Which can be dropped in any stock (given this is how they're now sold it would allow those with plastic stock the option to continue or replace the stock.
Tight weight limt eliminates most of the "sniper" rifles. 6.5 maybe 7kg.
No price cap because it's not possible to police effectively.
This means Howas and Tikkas, could be up against Hardy's. Is that an issue?
Limit the scope to 25x

Open is any modified barreled action with a heavier weight limit. Up to 8kg maybe. Anything heavier can shoot FTR or Open?

The other solution is to throw it to the wind, have 1 class up to say 8kg but must be shot from the shoulder, no rear bag.

Thoughts?

Firstly I agree Hunter /factory needs addressed foremost as requested

Tim , I like your factory criteria , Unmodified is the most important point - otherwise it not factory .
And 6.5kg is plenty more than enough looking at my accurate hunting rifles could even be “less” and that ,weight itself will regulate choices
The 26” barrel is ok . Muzzle brakes are ok if the range/club permits , our club fully welcomes them.
Price cap would be good but too hard to police I wouldn’t RO that day
Scope limit to 25x isn’t a bad idea also
Folding /hunting bipod Typical Harris , atlas etc , also included in the weight as attachment -again helps limit things
If there are some fancy factory rifles that fit the above - well so be it , have to stop pulling our hair out somewhere.

For Open -
Anything that doesn’t fit the above becomes custom “repeater” so go knock yourself out, and I would use rules very close to the PRS crowd this does 2 things , 1 makes it easy and 2 we might get them to come over too with existing equipment - no brainer think business

Shooting all prone , front carpet or rubber etc under the bipod with no in ground protrusions , rear bag with no mechanical adjustments

I’m sure I’ve left out other details so go easy

[Weairy]

Thoughts on use of benches in this class?

I know of a couple of shooters who shoot off a bench in this class. It’s a hard line to draw; obviously there are some advantages of a flat surface to shoot off etc. but I don’t want to see people excluded for shooting off the bench. F/TR has rules that exclude bench shooters for the obvious advantage it has (20.40 The use of ‘tables’ i.e. a single flat solid surface extending under both front rest and rear bag is prohibited.).

Just interested in thoughts and opinions on this one.

[Barry Davies]

Rule 20.54 allows for a table in FTR for certified disabled shooters. This should be extended to cover hunter class also, but only for disabled shooters.

[macguru]

FYI (applies to NSWRA only at this stage AFAIK) :
Below the revised NSWRA Sporter Hunter Rules for the 2022 Open Championships/Queens (7-11 September
2022):
1. Rifles must be commercially produced and available complete with repeating rifle. Single shot match
actions, or action only builds are not appropriate for this class.
2. If barrels are replaced, they must be no more than 26 inches in length when measured from the bolt
face and a maximum of heavy varmint profile.
3. Scopes may not be used above 30x magnification
4. Bipods must be of a folding commercially produced type with a footprint no more than 300mm wide.
The bipod must directly contact the mound with nothing in between the bipod and mound. If the bipod
is fitted with spikes, then they must also be commercially produced and no more than 25mm in length.
5. Rear bags are to be of a soft pliable construction on all surfaces (squeeze bag) with no ears. The bag
must directly contact the mound or mat, but no other items e.g. plates or supports.
6. If the rifle is re stocked it must be with a commercially produced and available stock.
7. Rifle including bipod, bolt and magazine must weigh no more than 7.5kg
8. Trigger weight to be no less than 500 grams.

finally some sensible rules. Its the style of shooting that determines the class, not whether the rifle is home made or shop bought....

[Tim L]

Thoughts on use of benches in this class?

I know of a couple of shooters who shoot off a bench in this class. It’s a hard line to draw; obviously there are some advantages of a flat surface to shoot off etc. but I don’t want to see people excluded for shooting off the bench. F/TR has rules that exclude bench shooters for the obvious advantage it has (20.40 The use of ‘tables’ i.e. a single flat solid surface extending under both front rest and rear bag is prohibited.).

Just interested in thoughts and opinions on this one.

FTR can, and is, shot off a bench with a medical exemption.
This is an option open to all disciplines.