Once you start shooting you quickly see what you need to do. Reading is one thing but experience is a much better teacher. I jumped into open class with a Fstd 223 and 4 ounce trigger, I struggled to keep up with the open shooters but I learnt heaps along the way.
Anytime you shoot, the only person you need to beat is yourself, a PB is marvelous and eventually, will lead to a podium finish or better! More importantly you quickly identify the areas you need to concentrate on such as shooting technique, reloading or equipment. I've seen the little 6BR do amazing things so dont discount it for open class especially from 300-600 and even 800yds in good conditions. Also cheap to reload, easy on the recoil to ensure proper technique etc
Just reading your first post again, it sounds like you have not bought a rifle yet? There are many options for you if that is the case. There are a lot of guys on this forum that can provide leads on rifles that might be suitable within your budget. It is in our best interests to see you shooting, so usually people will do what it takes to allow that.
Just some basic stuff about chamberings and what they can do:
300WM are ok, but in a hunting weight rifle, will be very tiring in a big comp. Even a 308 using 155 grain bullets in F Std can be tiring due to recoil in a 5 day event.
A std 260 Remington and 140 grain bullet (at 2850 fps - 308 case with a 6,5 mm bullet) has the exact same elevation and windage as the 300WM using a 190 grain bullet with half the recoil. Is a lot cheaper to run, and less visits to the chiro to get your shoulder put back where it belongs. In a 10 kilo F Open rifle, this does not apply.
The 6,5 x 55 (swede) is even better than the 260. Has more case capacity to run the 140 grain bullet up to 3000fps. This is then right up with the 6,5 x 284. My own 260 improved runs at 3060fps.
The only thing that matters in performance is the MV of the bullet you choose - this is where the performance comes from. Generally, a chambering is chosen for the end performance in mind. For example:
A 142 grain Sierra MK in 6,5mm cal needs to be running at near 3000 fps to really gain the benefit of its BC. This restricts the chamber to only those that have the capacity to get it done. It leaves out smaller ones like the 260 Rem, as it is just too small.
If you then went to the newer 180 grain Berger 7mm bullet with its very high BC, it can also only be realised if the bullet is going near 3000 fps. This is a harder to achieve than the 6,5mm. Again, the case needs to be bigger again to get the velocity. The std 284Win is just a bit small capacity to get it done, which is why people use things like the 284 Shehane - just that bit larger to get the 180 grainer moving.
It is a lot easier to get 3000fps from a lighter bullet than a heavy one in any caliber.
The 300 WSM is a good compromise, as is the 7 WSM (necked down 30 cal WSM). Why? Because the WSM uses the case head size of the magnum bolt face, without the belt, thereby gaining a lot of capacity. This then means similar capacity to the 300WM, but can be used in a short action. 300WSM cases are easy to find in AU as well.
If you were to ask me (as a rifle builder) the question about a rifle, my answer would be to use something like the Tikka T3 (not the plastic one), and simply change the barrel for one chambered in 30 or 7 WSM if it were a magnum bolt face. A short action gives the opportunity to use very common LENGTH cartridges, but any option for different chamberings. Ideally, a short T3 in a WSM chambering, then you can still use it for hunting with the supplied magazine.
If using a shorter barrel to maintain the rifle balance, you will lose some MV, this needs to be kept in mind when looking at performance figures. 30 inch barrels are the standard these days.
Performance is not judged by the overall weight of the bullet. If it were the world record holders would currently be using 30 cal (or bigger) bullets in F Class, which in general they no longer do. It is mostly 6,5 and 7mm these days. To keep up with the latest bullet in 7mm, people would need to be using a 240 grain bullet in 30 cal. That would knock the snot out of most people I know.
It is a balancing act between recoil, bullet BC, MV and barrel twist rates etc. Then there is cost: brass life, bullet costs (which can be substantial), barrel life, chamber reamer availability etc
Thanks for the Velocity Vs Weight break-down, very nice and helpful summary when trying to decide on a cartridge.
Regarding a 300WSM or 7WSM, what brass would you use? is there even match grade brass available for these calibers?
Still not 100% certain on what i'm going to do, but at the moment almost convinced as a starting point to go for the Savage Model 12 F-Class in 6.5x284 with 142 Grain Sierra MKs in lapua brass
This gives me a good starting point and then the option to re-barrel later to a 7mm be it WSM or just 284 if I wanted (i've been told the savage target actions have a removable bolt head that i can get replaced to magnum blot face, is this true?)
Cheers,
Stevo
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what’s for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep challenging that decision.
Steve, you can get Norma brass for both 300WM and 300WSM but Lapua is not available.
Here are some facts...
6.5mm 140gr VLD BC =0.313 G7
7mm 180gr VLD BC = 0.337 G7
30cal 210gr VLD BC = 0.316 G7
All of the above can be launched at 3000fps with the right powder, chamber and barrel combination. The wind drift provides the most significant check for ballistic advantage. At 1000 yards in a 10mph cross wind and with 3000fps velocity the results are shown below...
6.5mm 140gr VLDs Drift 5.85 moa or 61.3"
7mm 180gr VLDs Drift 5.31 moa or 55.6"
30cal 210gr VLDs Drift 5.31 moa or 60.5"
If you get the Savage 6.5x284 then you give away next to nothing against the 300WM. Then when you use your 7mm switch barrel or later upgrade in 284W or 284Shehane you have the highest BC bullet now available to target shooters. Soon the 180gr Berger Hybrid will be available with an even better BC.
If a magnum bolt can be used then the 7mm SAUM is maybe a better choice than the 300WSM for using with 7mm projectiles it has a shorter and more efficient case.
The only thing that matters in performance is the MV of the bullet you choose - this is where the performance comes from. Generally, a chambering is chosen for the end performance in mind. For example:
A 142 grain Sierra MK in 6,5mm cal needs to be running at near 3000 fps to really gain the benefit of its BC. This restricts the chamber to only those that have the capacity to get it done. It leaves out smaller ones like the 260 Rem, as it is just too small.
If you then went to the newer 180 grain Berger 7mm bullet with its very high BC, it can also only be realised if the bullet is going near 3000 fps. This is a harder to achieve than the 6,5mm. Again, the case needs to be bigger again to get the velocity. The std 284Win is just a bit small capacity to get it done, which is why people use things like the 284 Shehane - just that bit larger to get the 180 grainer moving.
There's no prize for muzzel velocity, only accuracy, of the 10 Open Queens I won, only one chamber was 3000 FPS or above, the rest were around the 2850 FPS mark and I'm not alone ask Rod Davies how hard his 7mm is going.
If your starting with a clean sheet and just getting started, I would suggest a 6BR reasons being:
very accurate
easy to load (unlike the 6.5's)
good barrel life (which means lots of practice per barrel)
Once you get a handle on loading and reading conditions then upgrade to something bigger if required.
BTW I shot more 100's with my BR than the rest put together and I've worn out a few barrels.
Gear only gets you so far, reading conditions is what makes the biggest difference.
There's no prize for muzzel velocity, only accuracy, of the 10 Open Queens I won, only one chamber was 3000 FPS or above, the rest were around the 2850 FPS mark and I'm not alone ask Rod Davies how hard his 7mm is going. If your starting with a clean sheet and just getting started, I would suggest a 6BR reasons being: very accurate easy to load (unlike the 6.5's) good barrel life (which means lots of practice per barrel) Once you get a handle on loading and reading conditions then upgrade to something bigger if required. BTW I shot more 100's with my BR than the rest put together and I've worn out a few barrels. Gear only gets you so far, reading conditions is what makes the biggest difference.
Matt P
You beat me to it Matt. The 6br is the ideal cartridge to start with. My wife used it for a couple of years out to 1000yds. A good way to learn how to shoot without having to worry about fussy cartridges.
My 284 with 175 mk's runs at 2830fps. I could run it faster, but the accuracy node is where I run it. This setup has shot excellent scores at the longer ranges. Don't fall into the trap of some US shooters thinking that you have to run at maximum velocity. The barrel "accuracy node" or "sweet spot" is what you need to look for with long range shooting.
The good thing about the high BC projectiles is you can run them in the 2800s and still get very low wind drift. BC is a far more important figure than muzzle velocity. Which is fortunate, because I've been trying my Shehane in the 2900s, and the primer pockets only last 2 or 3 firings . I still need to find a good accuracy node in the 2800s.
Sure the 6BR will do the job in fine weather. It is a huge disadvantage over 800 yards. I know lots of people will disagree, but if they were the choice, the current world record holders would use them at long range. People will quote records shot by 6BR, but that will be calm weather (compared to what we see).
I use a 6BR at shorts to save money, but in reality, the 264 or 284 is in a different league with regard to wind. Accuracy is needed, no argument there. But it is at the long ranges where the comp is won, not the shorts.
From the chamberings you listed, the 6,5 x 284 would be my recommendation. A 7mm is simply the straight 284, same bolt face, same rifle etc. Brass can be obtained, bullets also. It is common enough in AU.
I have been talking to a top level FO shooter recently (not in AU), he laughed at me with my 6,5 @ 3000fps. This guy uses a 7mm at top velocities and would not even consider using a 6,5 any more. This is a guy that shoots in world championships and has wins at that level.
What you get into quite quickly is a switch barrel setup - smaller caliber for shorts, bigger for longs.
If cost is a factor, buy the same rifle in 308W and shoot in F Standard. This is the best place to learn wind reading, as the big bangers can give you a false sense of security in less wind.
AlanF wrote:The good thing about the high BC projectiles is you can run them in the 2800s and still get very low wind drift. BC is a far more important figure than muzzle velocity. Which is fortunate, because I've been trying my Shehane in the 2900s, and the primer pockets only last 2 or 3 firings . I still need to find a good accuracy node in the 2800s.
Alan
Alan the BC is based from the velocity, it is not a figure in the absence of other input. Higher MV gives higher BC figures at all ranges, it is cumulative. Higher starting MV gives higher end velocity - in other words better performance. Using a high BC bullet like the 7mm Berger and shooting it at a lower velocity is like owning a Ferrari and using skinny cross ply tires on it - the performance will never be realised.
Better to use a lighter bullet and shoot it at the ideal velocity, much easier to achieve in a 6,5 x 284. Using a 6,5 @ 3000fps will likely shoot inside a 7mm with higher BC at 2850 fps.
Using lower MV is purely a cost saving exercise. If there was no budget, I would personally use the highest MV I could squeeze from all of my rifles - as long as they still group well of course.
Woody_rod wrote: Using lower MV is purely a cost saving exercise. If there was no budget, I would personally use the highest MV I could squeeze from all of my rifles - as long as they still group well of course.
Not a cost saving exercise for me Rod. Tried and proven combination.
Stevo, getting back to the start. Have you been down to Belmont range. I see you are in Brisbane. Ask the locals there for some advise. Quite a few shoot Open and use various chamberings. Send me a PM if you want info or contacts etc.
Woody_rod wrote:Alan the BC is based from the velocity, it is not a figure in the absence of other input. Higher MV gives higher BC figures at all ranges, it is cumulative...
Some BCs (e.g. G1) do indeed alter with different velocities, but only because they aren't a good fit to the type of projectile. G7 BCs, which are becoming widely used by leading ballisticians, stay much the same regardless of velocity.
Woody_rod wrote:Using a 6,5 @ 3000fps will likely shoot inside a 7mm with higher BC at 2850 fps. .
Not according to my calculations - Here are some 10mph wind drift figures for 1500 yards user Berger Ballistics :
The approx relationship is that if a G7 BC is 0.001 higher, it needs 8fps less for the same wind drift.
As an example, if you look at the 7mm SMK175 (G7 0.327) vs the Berger VLD180, the SMK has a 0.010 lower G7 BC, so will need 80fps more muzzle velocity to achieve the same wind drift figures.
This is why I stated that BC is more important than velocity. It requires a big velocity increase to give the same wind drift advantage as a very small BC increase.
Alan
PS. I should stress that all the velocity and BC in the world means nothing if you don't have accuracy. Some barrels don't like the Bergers, and some don't like high velocity - that is why for most of my 6.5 barrels I used SMK 142s in the low 2900s, and undoubtedly Matt and Cameron have similar reasons for their load choices.
Last edited by AlanF on Sun Feb 20, 2011 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
G'Day Stevo,
like the guys said previously; a 6BR is a great way to start out for all of those reasons:
1. Cheap to reload
2. Great barrel life = LOTS OF PRACTICE! Essential when you start out
3. low recoil - great to prefect your technique on the mound.
4. dies are mainstream so can be cheaper for quality dies compared to some more exotic chamberings (you still need high quality dies to produce straight ammo)
5. Ideal for most shoots out to 7-800yds = most prize shoot formats
6. There are more than a few shooters using a 6BR at the shorter yardages and then swapping to a 6.5-284/284/300WSM type chamberings for beyond the 6BR limits so dont think they are not worthy.
7. Any burnt out Rem700(or other suitable action such as a Savage/Tikka) in 22-250 is a great donor rifle for a 6BR barrel.
Definately go to your local range and ask LOTS of questions, dont ever think they might be dumd queations either...........howver you might get some dumb answers!
But you are doing all the right things to get started, good luck and have fun - Thats rule no 1 in my book!
Second hand Benchrest rifle ie sleeved rem700 or XP100 there are a few around at reasonable prices. Adavantages are they usually have a good trigger already, are set up and ready to shoot and often come with dies and cases. (if you dont want the dies and brass they are easily sold)
They will mostly be in PPC but a quick rebarrel gives you a 6PPC or 6BR with 1:8 twist barrel (dont let anyone tell you the PPC wont shoot 105's with a 1:8 barrel they just dont use them in short range BR is all)
You can use this set up both are proven accuracy performers. and the action will take a 6 or 6.5x47 Lapua, 260 or 260AI, 7mm08 etc later if you like. Although I doubt you will sell it later.
As for rests the Caldwell is not ideal, I would look at a locally made rest called the Raptor made by a member here or a Sinclair from the states.
Cameron Mc wrote:Stevo, getting back to the start. Have you been down to Belmont range. I see you are in Brisbane. Ask the locals there for some advise. Quite a few shoot Open and use various chamberings. Send me a PM if you want info or contacts etc. Cameron
I've actually been waiting to get a chance to head down there (well the QRA ranges) and try and have a chat to some of the F-class guys down there but i've been stuck working weekends for a few weeks now hoping to try and get out there next weekend when i've finally got a saturday off again.... but any contact info you could send me would be very much appreciated as the only belmont range i've shot at is the SSAA one (please dont judge me...)
Dave, if i was to look at a sinclair rest would that mean ordering it from the states? or is there an importer in AUS? as for the Raptor one, tried to find it googling and came up with nothing? link possibly please?
A few people have tried to convince me to opt for a rem700 action or build rifle, but sorry thats one thing i wont go for, as much as you've all talked me over to the 6.5x284 and the like, to be blunt the feel of a rem 700 action makes me want to cry... personal choice i know but personally i hate them (another reason i'm going for the savage).
Thanks again though guys, its amazing how welcoming and helpful everyone here is its great
Cheers,
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what’s for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep challenging that decision.
(i've been told the savage target actions have a removable bolt head that i can get replaced to magnum blot face, is this true?)
. I still need to find a good accuracy node in the 2800s.
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