Thanks
Hay Denis do you use anneal cases in a comp
Annealing necks ...good thing or bad thing?
Moderator: Mod
-
DenisA
- Posts: 1544
- Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:00 pm
- Location: Sunshine Coast, QLD
- Has thanked: 167 times
- Been thanked: 137 times
G'day Phil, I'm happy to use annealed cases in comps. They shoot very well, though my level of shooting isn't good enough to advise beyond doubt that that is the best way to go.
Also my level of shooting doesnt regularly trend to X counts that are high enough to really see the difference between freshly annealed and 2nd or 3rd fired cases.
I have found that neck tension and bullet seating seems to be the most uniform on a second firing after annealing and the brass is still soft enough not to spring back.
There are shooters who's experience and advice I listen to intently and trust beyond doubt and Cam Mc is one of them.
Also my level of shooting doesnt regularly trend to X counts that are high enough to really see the difference between freshly annealed and 2nd or 3rd fired cases.
I have found that neck tension and bullet seating seems to be the most uniform on a second firing after annealing and the brass is still soft enough not to spring back.
There are shooters who's experience and advice I listen to intently and trust beyond doubt and Cam Mc is one of them.
-
Cameron Mc
- Posts: 1089
- Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 10:55 am
- Location: Darling Downs SE Qld
- Been thanked: 1 time
DenisA wrote:There are shooters who's experience and advice I listen to intently and trust beyond doubt and Cam Mc is one of them.
I will keep that in mind when you beat me Denis
Seriously I find with a lot of our loading techniques etc, it comes down to what works for you. So trigger time and experimenting at club shoots is a must. Your scores tell the story hey
Just on another subject Denis. Do you do the housework? Your gun room looks very tidy
Cheers
-
plumbs7
- Posts: 1124
- Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:32 am
- Location: Dalby/ Tara Rifle Club
- Has thanked: 177 times
- Been thanked: 9 times
Malcolm Hill wrote:Graham
I have no issues with shooting a comp after annealing. The fly target in the Events section was shot straight after annealing as was a 60.6 and 60.9 earlier in the day. Usually I make sure that all my cases are annealed and trimmed prior to a big comp to make sure there is minimal variation in seating pressure.
Regards Malcolm.
Hi Mal,
Wow ! I hope ur not in f standard then ! Obviously works for you !
What is ur technique , machine or by hand?
-
plumbs7
- Posts: 1124
- Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:32 am
- Location: Dalby/ Tara Rifle Club
- Has thanked: 177 times
- Been thanked: 9 times
Ok , I think I've found my problem from Warwick with the vertical.
Today I went through that batch of brass I annealed for that comp and found something very interesting. I grabbed a berger bullet and ran it down the neck of the fired cases . And the projectile fitted snugly over the majority of the cases. Like they were nearly resized . Then there were about 6 that were loose as. Obviously not enough heat to hold that tension and had sprung back. All of the shots that went into the 5 ring at 600 were high from memory .
I had some old brass that scored me a few possibles recently and did the same thing . They were loose as and in need of a heat treatment!
Therefore , the loose neck tension caused a high shot (???).
Inconsistent heat caused the problem ! A machine is the only way to do it properly if you want to shoot it in a major comp straight up. I still think a firing is an advantage . So I would agree with my mentor ( Cam).
Sellsy.
Just like to thank all who have contributed to this topic.
Today I went through that batch of brass I annealed for that comp and found something very interesting. I grabbed a berger bullet and ran it down the neck of the fired cases . And the projectile fitted snugly over the majority of the cases. Like they were nearly resized . Then there were about 6 that were loose as. Obviously not enough heat to hold that tension and had sprung back. All of the shots that went into the 5 ring at 600 were high from memory .
I had some old brass that scored me a few possibles recently and did the same thing . They were loose as and in need of a heat treatment!
Therefore , the loose neck tension caused a high shot (???).
Inconsistent heat caused the problem ! A machine is the only way to do it properly if you want to shoot it in a major comp straight up. I still think a firing is an advantage . So I would agree with my mentor ( Cam).
Sellsy.
Just like to thank all who have contributed to this topic.
-
Malcolm Hill
- Posts: 335
- Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:40 pm
- Location: Mid North S.A.
- Has thanked: 8 times
- Been thanked: 107 times
Graham
Yes it is an F standard 223 with plenty of rounds through it and shot off a bi pod. I anneal by hand with case holders I make up for each calibre used in an electric drill. A little practice and you can get very good consistency with all cases looking like new Lapua's when annealed. Takes me around seven minutes to anneal 50 cases so is not too time consuming and is well worth the effort especially with the 223 which is not tolerant to uneven neck tension.
Regards Malcolm.
Yes it is an F standard 223 with plenty of rounds through it and shot off a bi pod. I anneal by hand with case holders I make up for each calibre used in an electric drill. A little practice and you can get very good consistency with all cases looking like new Lapua's when annealed. Takes me around seven minutes to anneal 50 cases so is not too time consuming and is well worth the effort especially with the 223 which is not tolerant to uneven neck tension.
Regards Malcolm.
-
williada
- Posts: 969
- Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:37 am
- Has thanked: 263 times
- Been thanked: 422 times
Graham, I do anneal, but what I do is work harden the neck a little after annealing. To do this, I use a Sinclair neck expander. Its long and does not distort the necks unlike the commercial oval shaped expanders. I re-neck size and then go in with expander a couple of times to work harden the brass, then resize or shoulder and neck. This seems to iron out a bit of the inconsistencies of the case after annealing. As I said on the post about jump and Wilson dies, first fired cases take about 3 firings to settle spring-back. Or sometimes cases shrink because they are expanded into greater wall distance of some chambers and headspace distance is altered. You need a custom die to maintain consistent headspace on the case.
However, my annealed cases seem to be right after 1 firing and using the expander prior to firing. Make sure you adjust your dies to get the right headspace settings. Re-read the post on jump and Wilson dies for more details. It is so important that the first firings are done with jammed projectiles to centralise the case in the chamber or correct headspace for the same purpose.
What I do is anneal the neck between 6 - 8 seconds depending on the neck thickness with a hot blue flame with its inner point aimed at the junction of the neck and shoulder while the case is spinning. I established this with Templilaq about 650 degrees F. This makes sure the body of the case is not really altered much in its hardness. If the web is softened it can lead to catastrophic failure. Then I let the cases cool slowly by themselves. Never dip them in coolant oil or water.
Beware that brass has a habit of continuing to change its dimensions over time irrespective what you do to it and gets harder. So its a good idea to resize as close as possible to a match.
To test the neck tension, I do what the commercial boys do by way of random sample. I have a special gauge in a press which I measure the press force of the projectile into the case. Its a fancy gauge attached to a zig zag body like that of a compressible pop riveter attached to a bottom plate with a central hole in the plate for the projectile to be pushed down. This hole is bevelled so it is sharp enough to grip and extract the projectile with upward pressure. Like you guys, after thousands of rounds I know the right feel and don't need to measure it now. You can batch your rounds by feel pressure. I also used the same tool to extract sample rounds and note force. The latter is very important. The commercial round makers know how important this is to complete powder burn and pressure consistency because they are often testing sealant release pressure. I am convinced a tight neck pressure is better than a loose one unless you are jammed in the lands.
So what is the right pressure? It’s simple, if you have a top group, get a sample case and extract it and duplicate the neck tension. In duplicating the neck tension use a die such as a Redding which allows you to experiment with different interchangeable neck pieces.
In addition, if you really want to get down into the mud run your bullets through an appropriate neck die with your fingers and you will note some bullets will slip through easily and others exhibit resistance and others won't go at all. So what is blamed on annealing is often bullet diameter variance. This is just as important as measurement of ogive to base and the length of the body of a bullet for friction and is one of the determinants of bore time.
If you are still fussy, you would have polished the inside neck of your case with “00” steel wool on a rod suspended from the drill press. And if you still want more, you can fill a small container to the depth of your neck with small steel ball bearings or lead shot if you want poisoning and sprinkle moly powder or graphite over them. Then you can swirl a case amongst the balls covered with dry lubricant so a couple of balls coat the inside of the neck. Beware moly attracts moisture and is best used with mollied projectiles and mollied bore as it will change friction patterns if done half right. The bore has to be conditioned and I suppose the same applies to other compounds. Bare copper is a natural lubricant in its own right. So it's ok with nothing but copper and brass.
Good shooting, David.
However, my annealed cases seem to be right after 1 firing and using the expander prior to firing. Make sure you adjust your dies to get the right headspace settings. Re-read the post on jump and Wilson dies for more details. It is so important that the first firings are done with jammed projectiles to centralise the case in the chamber or correct headspace for the same purpose.
What I do is anneal the neck between 6 - 8 seconds depending on the neck thickness with a hot blue flame with its inner point aimed at the junction of the neck and shoulder while the case is spinning. I established this with Templilaq about 650 degrees F. This makes sure the body of the case is not really altered much in its hardness. If the web is softened it can lead to catastrophic failure. Then I let the cases cool slowly by themselves. Never dip them in coolant oil or water.
Beware that brass has a habit of continuing to change its dimensions over time irrespective what you do to it and gets harder. So its a good idea to resize as close as possible to a match.
To test the neck tension, I do what the commercial boys do by way of random sample. I have a special gauge in a press which I measure the press force of the projectile into the case. Its a fancy gauge attached to a zig zag body like that of a compressible pop riveter attached to a bottom plate with a central hole in the plate for the projectile to be pushed down. This hole is bevelled so it is sharp enough to grip and extract the projectile with upward pressure. Like you guys, after thousands of rounds I know the right feel and don't need to measure it now. You can batch your rounds by feel pressure. I also used the same tool to extract sample rounds and note force. The latter is very important. The commercial round makers know how important this is to complete powder burn and pressure consistency because they are often testing sealant release pressure. I am convinced a tight neck pressure is better than a loose one unless you are jammed in the lands.
So what is the right pressure? It’s simple, if you have a top group, get a sample case and extract it and duplicate the neck tension. In duplicating the neck tension use a die such as a Redding which allows you to experiment with different interchangeable neck pieces.
In addition, if you really want to get down into the mud run your bullets through an appropriate neck die with your fingers and you will note some bullets will slip through easily and others exhibit resistance and others won't go at all. So what is blamed on annealing is often bullet diameter variance. This is just as important as measurement of ogive to base and the length of the body of a bullet for friction and is one of the determinants of bore time.
If you are still fussy, you would have polished the inside neck of your case with “00” steel wool on a rod suspended from the drill press. And if you still want more, you can fill a small container to the depth of your neck with small steel ball bearings or lead shot if you want poisoning and sprinkle moly powder or graphite over them. Then you can swirl a case amongst the balls covered with dry lubricant so a couple of balls coat the inside of the neck. Beware moly attracts moisture and is best used with mollied projectiles and mollied bore as it will change friction patterns if done half right. The bore has to be conditioned and I suppose the same applies to other compounds. Bare copper is a natural lubricant in its own right. So it's ok with nothing but copper and brass.
Good shooting, David.
Last edited by williada on Mon Jun 09, 2014 11:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
-
plumbs7
- Posts: 1124
- Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:32 am
- Location: Dalby/ Tara Rifle Club
- Has thanked: 177 times
- Been thanked: 9 times
Wow David again thanks . I like the idea of work hardening with sinclair expander . I can now see and have enough info to do it by hand and practise . I own type s redding neck die .335 collet with the standard expander . I wonder if that would be enough , if I ran it a few times through it to work harden them?
The only bug bare about using steel wool is cross connection and steel entering the bore and gauging it ????have to be clean!
Do you have a photo of the expander available that you use ?
Regards Graham.
The only bug bare about using steel wool is cross connection and steel entering the bore and gauging it ????have to be clean!
Do you have a photo of the expander available that you use ?
Regards Graham.
-
williada
- Posts: 969
- Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:37 am
- Has thanked: 263 times
- Been thanked: 422 times
Graham, I see the problem with the standard expander is the narrow stem on which it flexes and it needs to be lubricated because you can put an oval thinning in the neck and contribute to brass flow by mechanical means particularly if you don't lubricate. It tends to bind and squeak. The noise is a sure sign of damage and flex.
In fact only for the annealing process, or a case’s first time use, I don't use an expander and use the bullet to do the work on seating. Works for me but it maybe different for others.
The collets are the exact thing I use to measure bullet diameter for comparative purposes. You will have to order some as go and no go or oversize hole gauges effectively. I make my own.
The Sinclair stem on the expander is thick and fits inside a holder that screws into your press like a normal die. Choose an expander width about .001" greater than your nominal calibre, then use the appropriate collet to size the neck.
I do not have a picture handy or a camera right now but I will see if I can get one, unless someone else has one at hand. You can look up the Sinclair International site under reloading. David.
In fact only for the annealing process, or a case’s first time use, I don't use an expander and use the bullet to do the work on seating. Works for me but it maybe different for others.
The collets are the exact thing I use to measure bullet diameter for comparative purposes. You will have to order some as go and no go or oversize hole gauges effectively. I make my own.
The Sinclair stem on the expander is thick and fits inside a holder that screws into your press like a normal die. Choose an expander width about .001" greater than your nominal calibre, then use the appropriate collet to size the neck.
I do not have a picture handy or a camera right now but I will see if I can get one, unless someone else has one at hand. You can look up the Sinclair International site under reloading. David.
Menu
Newest members