Cross Shooting!

[a.JR]

hs

[Mick]

I've said it plenty of times, I reckon there needs to be an unrestricted class. I doubt it would be well received by the 'thats not fair, his equipment is better than mine' brigade.

There isn't a lack of shooters, but there are a lack of shooters who can afford to run guns for more than 1 discipline. Setting up for BR is expensive, as is setting up for F Open. If there were a "bring what you have and shoot it" class, I'd compete in it every weekend, as well as prize meetings and queeens if it ever happened. I dont care if you bring your 100 pound 1K heavy rig, a rail gun, or a slingshot and some rocks. I'd happily use my rifle that currently qualifies for LG in Fly and 1K BR, as well as F Open, which has outshot plenty of heavy gun rigs and rifles that cost 5x its price tag. I could care less if I got a hiding every weekend. I shoot because I enjoy it.

[Tony Q]

Jeff …

There must be a magic ingredient somewhere to entice people to at least try it. There has been talk of our club putting benches on the 1000yrd line for BR. This would be a good move and I know several FS and FO shooters who would participate.

The other possibility is INVITATION Shoot, arrange get-togethers with the local BR, Service rifle, 3P or Silhouette clubs, and make it interesting enough for them to give it a go. Nothing to loose, or has this been tried before?

One of our club legends has organised such a thing for Nov, on our range, with Service rifle and Field rifle shooters from other areas. I'll let you know how it all goes and what feed back we get from it.

Mike …

Admirable view on things. But isn’t FO unrestricted enough for anyone to try? Its only restrictions are the caliber (8mm max) but that is because the FB ranges are restricted to 8mm. The only other restriction is weight at 10kg. While I know this restricts the use of Heavy 1000yrd BR guns, I think? The only other restriction I can think of is muzzle brakes, but that’s because we shoot prone (although my Sako break doesn’t rake up the dust as its blank bottomed)

The only other issue is suitable twist rates and barrel lengths for the longs.

I was at the SARA stores today, and a guy came in who has a 30-06. He didn’t even know about fullbore or f class and was very intrigued by what we do, I gave him some details and hopefully he will call and tee up a visit. All he was interested in was learning how to shoot long range and was happy that our Open class allows for his caliber.

Sometimes its just getting the name out there!

[Mick]

Mike …

Admirable view on things. But isn’t FO unrestricted enough for anyone to try? Its only restrictions are the caliber (8mm max) but that is because the FB ranges are restricted to 8mm. The only other restriction is weight at 10kg. While I know this restricts the use of Heavy 1000yrd BR guns, I think? The only other restriction I can think of is muzzle brakes, but that’s because we shoot prone (although my Sako break doesn’t rake up the dust as its blank bottomed)

The only other issue is suitable twist rates and barrel lengths for the longs.

I was at the SARA stores today, and a guy came in who has a 30-06. He didn’t even know about fullbore or f class and was very intrigued by what we do, I gave him some details and hopefully he will call and tee up a visit. All he was interested in was learning how to shoot long range and was happy that our Open class allows for his caliber.

Sometimes its just getting the name out there!

Again, I dont care what people turn up with, or how they choose to shoot it. Turn up with a 50BMG and shoot it off a bench, and I'll shoot the class right alongside you.

I think F Open is a misnomer, because it is far from "Open". It is no less restricted than F Std when you take an objective look at it. Weight limits, stock restrictions etc etc. FO is not unrestricted enough for anybody to give it a go, which is why you dont see people who have set themselves up for LR BR turning up. Like I said, it's not a cheap pasttime to get into, so the majority have to select which discipline they want to shoot, and get stuck there because of restrictions in other classes.

Make F Open truly open, and I believe the torrent of BR shooters who would enjoy shooting every second month or so would turn out in droves..

[Tony Q]

I see where your coming from Mick … but,

F Open is limited to just a few constraints, forend width at 3 inches, 8mm maximum caliber and 10kg weight. Apart from the use of muzzle breaks and return to battery rigs it is indeed an experimental class within the confines of the class outline.

I guess it would be like having one class in 1000 yrd BR instead of light gun and heavy gun. It doesn’t really work. With BR and while they have their Unlimited/Experimental class where pretty much anything goes they still have 3 other classes for centerfire rifles. Surely this is for a good reason ? Could that reason be that only ONE fully open class, and nothing else, doesnt work ?

In essence F Open is a competition discipline, and many are very competitive by nature. To have a truly Experimental class where anything goes would destroy that aspect and reduce F Open to a ‘Social’ or “individual’ shoot as many would not be able to afford the equipment to compete. This is the true essence of F Open, if you want to give it a go and your on a tight budget you can, and you can be darn competitive too.

I know most ranges in SA are of the military template and as such are rated 8mm maximum. We couldn’t use 338 or 50 BMG even of we wanted to without compromising the insurance. I know you only used it as an example, but that’s one of the reasons we don’t. However, I know this is different with some ranges.

Anyway, maybe F Open should be renamed to F (almost) Open

[AlanF]

I agree that an anything goes category would be hard to get going.

How about the following approach Jeff? :

The NRAA starts a new LG class based on the BR equipment rules for LG, and the SSAA starts a new F-Open class based on the NRAA equipment rules for F-Open! So F-Open shooters can go to a SSAA BR event and compete primarily against each other, and LG shooters can do the same at NRAA F-Class events. Of course there would be nothing to stop anyone from competing in a higher weight limit class, so direct competition between SSAA and NRAA shooters would probably become common.

Alan

[Mick]

And within the above lies EXACTLY what I'm talking about.

boo hoo hoo, equipment is different, better designed, more expensive, etc etc etc.

I dub my suggested class the "No sandy vagina class" where you turn up with whatever you have and shoot it. If you get beat, you spend your time getting better rather than bitching about equipment.

I'm one of the most competitive people you'll ever meet, and will NEVER blame my equipment if I didn't win. Poor tradesman blaming his tools analogy and all.

I'll even broaden my criteria for this class. Bring a goddamn naval gun if you can get hold of one. I hear the barrels of the 21" guns off the front of the USS Missouri are not being used these days, could maybe pick one up cheap . I'll shoot my 6.5x55AI in the same class as those, and STILL not give 2 shits if I win, lose or draw.

Open up F "Open" if you are REALLY interested in expanding the class. Otherwise, continue to make excuses as to why the numbers are sparse....

Last I'll say on it.

[AlanF]

... I'm one of the most competitive people you'll ever meet... and STILL not give 2 shits if I win, lose or draw...

Mick,

I think you need to make up your mind about being competitive or not. If you don't care whether you get beaten, then you're not competitive.

Most shooters I know are competitive, and if the equipment rules are vague, it will mean the best shooter is less likely to win, so the competition loses its value.

Alan

[Tony Q]

lol Mick

I know plenty of good tradesmen who will tell you a good tool beats a crap tool any day of the week. While both will do the job, one will do it quicker, cleaner and better than the other.

But, really, are you trying to tell me that a ‘Experimental/Unlimited’ return to battery 30kg race test rig in 30-338LM is no different to a 8kg BR rifle or FO rifle in 6BR or 6.5x284 ? Even caliber aside, the heavy experimental rig would generally win the day as long as shooter skill is even.

This isn’t a ‘boo hoo look what he’s got’ kinda thing, its keeping it affordable (if required) while still allowing competitiveness and skill to shine through. If it was so restricted as you say, everything on the mound would be an Omak, black barrel and a tasco scope.

No one is blaming anything mate, and while I admire your dedication to Open Slather, and Anything goes regardless … there needs to be limits or it just becomes an equipment race and those who cannot afford the top stuff will loose out. I mean, lets face it, if you were up against an ‘Unlimited return to battery race rig’, on a bench, with an equal skill operator, would you spend the $400-$500 needed to compete in a queens shoot?

I dont think i would

[Dave P]

Tony Q,

I may be reading this wrong but .. I don't think Mick is reffering to 100-200m BR Experimental class (ie Rail guns) and yes they are different to any stocked rifle in so many ways. They are also impractical for anything other than a bench IMHO.

I think what Mick means is something similar to the Fly Shoot rules where the classes are divided only by weight. Light Gun being 17lbs and under and Heavy Gun being unlimited weight. Foreend width can be 10 inches if you like .. but you still have to hold it and shoot it so somethings are just not practical ..

If you look at results in the USA in 1000 yd BR you will see that the Yanks tried up to 150lb guns but have gone away from that as it did not work .. just goes to show all things have a limit .. if the rules don't identify that limit results will.

cheers
Dave P

[Tony Q]

Hi Dave

I fully agree that there are not only practical limits but also those limits imposed by sheer physics. Not everything works.

I was making the reference to Mick’s ‘I don’t care if they shoot whatever off a bench’ comment. And I agree that prone shooting does level a few things out, or makes some totally impractical. But thats why limits are placed on certain disciplines, to ensure they are workable as a whole.

As with your reference to Silhouette, regardless of type, style or forend width, all are fired off hand, and that’s the leveler. I dont think FO shooters would mind if a 10 inch forend was shot, on a bipod, as thats a leveler too.

So, in the end, even an Unlimited F Open would still need some restraints, don’t you think.

But its all good debate, to come up with the ideas and the pros and cons and work through them. Thats why i said, maybe we should change the name of F Open ... and now i'll just run for cover

[RAVEN]

Jeff Y don’t U challenge the FO ppl to a match and visa versa nothing like a bit of friendly competition between associations.

I have been to the SSAA range with my FO rifle and given them a few pasting at their long range shoot (300yards) And have invited them out to the SARA range every time I have gone to Para
A couple came for a look but didn’t shoot.

I think an FO person also broke their egg shoot record last year

Maybe creating a team shoot QRA V SSAA of Q with a cup or shield at the end maybe the way to go say twice a year?.
Cheers
RB

[a.JR]

e..

[Mick]

Tony Q,

I may be reading this wrong but .. I don't think Mick is reffering to 100-200m BR Experimental class (ie Rail guns) and yes they are different to any stocked rifle in so many ways. They are also impractical for anything other than a bench IMHO.

I think what Mick means is something similar to the Fly Shoot rules where the classes are divided only by weight. Light Gun being 17lbs and under and Heavy Gun being unlimited weight. Foreend width can be 10 inches if you like .. but you still have to hold it and shoot it so somethings are just not practical ..

If you look at results in the USA in 1000 yd BR you will see that the Yanks tried up to 150lb guns but have gone away from that as it did not work .. just goes to show all things have a limit .. if the rules don't identify that limit results will.

cheers
Dave P

Pretty much exactly what I was getting at Dave. Glad somebody saw that what I was saying was just a little overblown. Got an amusing reaction though.

To simplify what I was getting at, drop the stock and weight restrictions, and you'll see a lot more shooters. Nothing about a new class, just relax those rules. BR making a new class to accomodate FO shooters was never mentioned by me, and not likely since BR isn't lacking shooters.

... I'm one of the most competitive people you'll ever meet... and STILL not give 2 shits if I win, lose or draw...

Mick,

I think you need to make up your mind about being competitive or not. If you don't care whether you get beaten, then you're not competitive.

Most shooters I know are competitive, and if the equipment rules are vague, it will mean the best shooter is less likely to win, so the competition loses its value.

Alan

Taking things out of context is nice.

In any case, I personally use not winning as motivation to get better. Being able to accept being beaten gracefully, without having a sook about it or looking for something other than myself to blame doesn't make me any less competitive. Second place can often teach you a very valuable lesson.

I dont think weight and stock configuration make much difference when it comes down to it. The best shooter is always more likely to win. If thats not the case, explain to me how Matt P took out the Federal Cup Fly this year with a LG that would qualify for FO, when up against the 80LB, 9 inch wide cannons that seem so feared....

[Tony Q]

Mick

I think you’re a little guilty of taking things out of context too and it would have been helpful if you had been clearer in the beginning. And, while I know some of your comments were embellished for effect I did indicate that in my replies and made reference to it being used as an example in kind.

But I would like you to answer something’s, if you’re able, for my education and to get a tighter perspective on this.

1....Do I take it that you have a Heavy Fly gun weighing more than 10kg and with a wider forend than 3 inches that you would like to use in F Open?

2....In 1000yrd BR and Fly shooting did the Light gun evolve first or did the Heavy gun, or did they both start at the same time?

3....If in BR, 1000yrd BR and Fly, if there were only ONE unlimited class in each discipline would there be as many shooters involved as there currently are?

4....In BR, 1000yrd BR and Fly which is more popular, the Light gun classes or the Heavy unlimited classes?

5. If BR is not lacking shooters, as you say, could this be because they do have 4 divisions to cater for all types?



Now Mick, there is nothing cynical hidden in here, I’m just curious and trying to get a clear picture.

If anyone else can answer these questions, please do. Thanks.


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