Hunting Rifles for F-Class

[timothi3197]

THIS THREAD STARTED IN "WHAT CAL" THREAD WHICH WENT OFF TOPIC - FORUM ADMIN

A bit off track but I can't resist,

Pestbird: I love my TIKKA T3 stainless lite in .243, have only tried it to 300yards at the range but it is as accurate as my Omark(yes it does have an expensive VX3 leupold on it not a cheap Nikko like my .308 but I do love my hunting- alas all that money for so few shots each year).

Now if they made a .223 with a 1:8 twist barrel I would have bought one of those instead of a stainless Omark.

Tim

[Paul Janzso]

Hi Tim

My TIKKA TACTICAL has a factory 20" 1:8 twist barrel as standard. The web sit says 1:8 and I had a T3 Lite in 223 and it had a 1:8, that shot well.

The reason I personally recomended a Tikka 308 to Patric is because he can buy the 7.62 target rounds off the shelf from SARA, (or even our club keeps those rounds on hand for sale) and competitevely shoot F Class Standard. Where as he can shoot the rifle without having to set up for cartridge reloading.

This is my point Tim, Patric can buy a quallity rifle off the shelf , buy competition rounds and go shoot. Where as with the 223 he would have to tool up for reloading and modify the throat.

The 223 I have , had to have the throat moved forward to accomodate the 80gn bullets. Previously to that, they were jamed in the case and pressures were a tad high, but the Tikka can handle it.

Tim, I'm glad what you said in your last post, someone other than me likes TIKKA'S.

Well , another thought, Patric could be talked into a Rem 700. Then what mods would he have to do to it to get it to shoot competitively?

Another thought, SAVAGE makes a factory F Class rifle, go see SARA, they probably have one on the shelf.

What no mention of "BARNARD'S" ?


Cheers
Paul

[timothi3197]

Yep, I love it when somebody reccommends a remington and then says "all you have to do is fit a Sako extractor, get a trigger job, bed it properly etc etc to make it shoot well". You may as well have just bought a Sako or Tikka in the first place no mods neccesary. Tikka .308 makes sense from what you have said, a sorted rifle for less than $1200 plus scope etc etc. And at least they have decent resale value unlike Omarks.

I wish I had known that Tikka had a 1:8 twist barrel in .223 before I comitted to the omark, oh well next time.

We have an off the shelf .300 winchester magnum(Ruger M77 1 in 10" twist 24 inch barrel) that is as accurate as the Omark as well at 300 yards, this would be a good F Open rifle I feel but with 68 grains of 2209 and a 220 grain proj it is a bit of a shoulder killer. I have never bothered trying any of our hunting rifles at more than 300 yards as that is the approx range I limit myself to in the bush. I may try the Tikka at 500 one day perhaps.

There are definatly some advantages at looking at some of the better hunting rifles as an option, but I am also a relative newcomer.

[Woody_rod]

We have had a lot of people come and try FS and use their fav hunting rifle in whatever caliber.

This usually works great until the range gets back to say 700 yards, then things usually dont go as well as one might want. Probably the biggest handicap is the short barrel.

I have seen probably 15-20 hunting type rifles used at our range, and never yet seen any one of them put 10 consecutive holes in the target at over 700 yards. This is not the middle, but anywhere on the target.

Dont let my seemingly negative thoughts top you from using a Tikka, they are a nice rifle, just dont get your hopes up that you will be in the shootoff at the Queens with it.

[timothi3197]

Sorry Rod:

I forgot about barrel length, you are right(but I am not the only one who can keep all my .303 shots on target at 600 with iron sights). I think the bent with the hunting rifles is more towards fun rather than really serious competition, you have to start somewhere. After all I only started going to my local club so I had a handy range to shoot my military rifles on and now I shoot F standard after trying TR for over a year.

Technical question: If the .300 Winchester is averaging 3200f/s over the clock with 150 grain sp's and is within 75mm @ 300 shouldn't it be accurate at 500/600/700 with 155grain dyers(if I am up to it)?

Get 'em on the mound and get them coming back otherwise the sport will shrink, but where should the line between serious and fun be drawn, I am not a serious shooter. Too many deep thoughts for one night .

I am really getting badly off track now, I will leave my last few posts for a few days then edit them back as my meanderings are starting to spoil the purpose of this thread(apologies). Or maybe another topic is in order Alan?

[AlanF]

Tim,

Here we are in a new thread.

My 2 cents worth - there are a few situations I have seen where a hunting rifle has surprised everyone, but in general, they don't cut the mustard past about 500 yards - there are various reasons - light weight, short barrel, fast twist, short throat, insufficient scope adjustment, inaccurate after muzzle brake (illegal) removed, or just plain inaccurate because of barrel quality or bedding etc. For that reason I would strongly recommend a converted Omark (or other cheap TR) as the best way of starting F-Std on a shoe-string. Nine times out of ten it will out-score a hunting rifle.

But I say again that there are rare exceptions.

Alan

[bennf]

You are right Alan

I have not seen a unworked hunting rifle do well past 500.
I would recomend as an off the shelf rifle a Savage 12 F/TR Precision Target Rifle.

Not sure of the current pricing but I understand that they are good enough to throw a 20moa scope rail on them a reasonable scope and off you go.


Hope that helps

[Woody_rod]

Sorry Rod:

Technical question: If the .300 Winchester is averaging 3200f/s over the clock with 150 grain sp's and is within 75mm @ 300 shouldn't it be accurate at 500/600/700 with 155grain dyers(if I am up to it)?

That probably depends on what twist rate you have. No reason you cant back the load off to 2950 and have the same drop as the TR guys - barrel length notwithstanding. Throat length might be ok, if is set for longer bullets, which the 300wm probably is. Set your bullets further forward to get the right jump maybe.

Following on from ALan, I would suggest an Omark conversion, which even if built right now, would probably be around the same cost of a hunting rifle. Last weekend at the Hackett Shield in WA, there were quite a few Omarks fielded as usual. Looking at the scores, there is no way of telling which rifle is which, as they were all shooting pretty well from what I saw. Stick to the 223Rem.

[timothi3197]

Rod, I have an Omark in .308 and a .223 on the way. If with all the rain we have had we aren't flooded out on Saturday I will try the .300 at 600 just for the sake of it, I will load up some sensible 155grain loads just for curiosity.

We have really only ever considered it as a 400 yard maximum hunting rifle before and the .243 a 2-300yard one.

What are the downsides to too fast a twist? I would have though the faster the better? I know that if too slow a twist there wouldn't be sufficient centrifugal force to stabilise bullets unless driven hard but wasn't aware you could have too fast a twist. Educate me please.

Kind regards,

Tim

[Woody_rod]

Well, I am not sure I am the right person to be asking....but I will give it a go:

Each bullet weight (which really means length: heavier = longer for any given caliber) needs a certain amount of rotation to keep stabilised at whatever range you are shooting at. In our case, up to 1000y. The longer the bullet, the more spin it needs at the same MV. 155 palma bullets are quite short, comparatively speaking (that is Sierra MK, Dyer HBC etc).

Examples:

Palma 155 TR or FS will usually be 1-12 or 1-13 twist @ 30" length
223Rem TR or FS will be at least 1-8 twist for the 80 gr @ 30"
223Rem Hunting rifle likely 1-12 for 50-60gr bullets @ 24"
22 Hornet 1-16, maybe 1-14 for 40-45 gr bullets @ 24"
22LR 1-16 for 40 gr @ 20"

This is part muzzle velocity and part twist rate. The same twist and a higher MV will give you a faster spin. This is why the yanks use a 1-7 or 6.5 twist for their 70-80gr bullets in the shorter AR15s - less MV, but roughly the same stabilisation. This is also partly the reason why the long target barrels have a comparatively slow twist - they generate more MV than a shorter one, and the fact that the bullets are short.

If you use a light bullet, which is the case if you are using a 300WM, and likely 1-10 twist, it may well over stabilise the bullet and make it less accurate. This goes against how it would seem, but it needs to be a "sweet" spot for maximum efficiency.

That being said, I know people that use 1-10 twist with palma bullets (155's) and do pretty well in the USA. If you use a 1-10 twist and down load to say, 2950fps, it will be spinning a lot faster than the bullet from a 1-13 barrel at the same speed.

[AlanF]

...it may well over stabilise the bullet and make it less accurate...

Rod,

I don't claim to know much about the science either, but I do know after reading many forum posts from the US BR community on this, opinion is divided as to whether "over-stabilisation" is possible. The reason I don't try to overdo the twist rate is that I believe a faster twist is harder on the jackets and may increase coppering, or even increase the likelihood of bullet blow-ups. But I've never see any firm evidence - its really just a hunch .

Alan

[timothi3197]

Thanks fellas it sounds right,

Was just on the phone and asked the question and got another opinion(Thanks Alec) is a too fast a twist can cause case pressures to skyrocket? Also apparently it definately increases fouling.

very interesting,

[Mike Blacker]

Some thoughts from some one who has been down this road.
I started shooting f class with a stock Remington 26"barrel VLS with a 1 in 11 twist. It had been properly bedded and had a trigger job when I first bought it. the problems I found were, 1/when shooting from prone the recoil is sharp. 2/the factory barrel is simply not good enough for the longer ranges, I found that I alway seemed to have the odd unexplained flier. My solution was to have the remington action trued and fitted a 28" krieger barrel. In hindsight I simply should have continued using the factory rifle as it was, and when I was confident enough to be sure I was sticking with F class. Then I should have had a rifle built for purpose. Granted they are more expensive, but its the old story buy once, cry once. How ever If I had a spare remington action lying around I would have no hesitation using that.
Given that a SAKO heavy barreled varmint rifle is now well over 2K. custom rifles are comparatively not that much more expensive. The temptation when using a hunting rifle is to progressively keep" improving" it until it has cost more than its worth. The problem with trying to use one tool to do two jobs is that both end up being a compromise

[Woody_rod]

As far as I can work out, and from doing some research, the faster twist does contribute to pressure, as it creates more effort for the bullet to pass. I think the barrel wear on it also can be created by the sharper angle of the rifling - makes sense.

Leave the R700 in the cupboard where it belongs...

[timothi3197]

Ok, at 600 the .300 seems to be every bit as as accurate as the omark .308, this is within the limits offered by a 12x scope.

However: the recoil is really unpleasant, 72 grains of powder behind a 155 Dyer each shot is very expensive, the barrel is way too light and gets too hot even resting for a few minutes between shots and I don't think it would last long, the stock is all wrong for the prone position and even though the barrel is stainless it took over an hour to get properly clean which is worse than my black barreled omark. I checked the twist rate and it is 1 in 10".

Conclusion, a .300 winchester magnum Ruger M77 is ok to have a bit of fun with occaisonally but would be a headache if using each weekend and is more suited to the purpose it was built for- hunting.

Tim