Making the decision on calibres is hard for a beginner at F class open, and I don't mean a round that you just go and shoot for the sake of trigger time, like so many people seem to do. I have tried several different cal so far from .303, .308, .223 and last shoot was on the 6.5 x47 Lap, which from 600 was pretty damn good, really I am looking for something out to 1000y as I want to train for comp not just inter club, I aspire to interstate and beyond. There are plenty of shooters that use the sport for basic social interaction and firing a rifle is just a mere function of course while you are there interacting.
High expectations and pipe dreams is popping into your mind right?, well I don't see the sense in not applying yourself to the full extent of your capabilities and beyond to discover what you think is out of your reach.
So back to calibres, I am not asking for secrets but more popular thought by result. I seriously think that the 6.5lap is a good starter and is perfect for my partner and i to gain experience with whilst achieving a satisfactory result. I have been tending toward a switch setup to .308 is this a sound cal for 1000y or will I find it too difficult when competing against other s like 7mm, 6.5 x 284 barrel tearers and the .300 win mag.
I know there are so many options and the best round is the one you win with but seriously at 1000y ballistics are highly imp to get to where you need to be on the paper and obviously the enviro factors are playing their role.
Where can I find an equipment list from state comps for various shoots? Or do they not publish this info? So much info from various sources on cal but much seems to influenced on a personal preference or possible placebo like effect. I just want the straight up facts, where can I find a list of projectile and cal bc to study. I have a short list in a wind book I am studying but am looking for specific results from comps or at up to 1000y ranges from the winning calibres
The Round that can do it all
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Benz
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bartman007
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I think you can start by having a look at what our world beating team were shooting. Marty was using straight 7mm 284.
In regard to equipment lists, look at this forum under events, and read the Queens series threads. They usually get published there.
Good to see you are planning ahead, but don't dismiss the 6.5x47 too soon, as it is a brilliant round that has proven itself at 1000 yards. During State Team practice at Bendigo, we were impressed in the great accuracy that Gary's rifle presented compared to the various other calibers on the day! It was shooting very flat.
You can read BC on most projectile manufacturer websites, as it is specific to their offerings. Don't always believe what you see there though, as each manufacturer is sure to tell you their projectile is better than their rival
When it all comes down to it in the end, you have to be able to read the wind. The 6.5x47 will get you to do that. If you don't want to run the barrel burners, then settle on the 7mm 284.
In regard to equipment lists, look at this forum under events, and read the Queens series threads. They usually get published there.
Good to see you are planning ahead, but don't dismiss the 6.5x47 too soon, as it is a brilliant round that has proven itself at 1000 yards. During State Team practice at Bendigo, we were impressed in the great accuracy that Gary's rifle presented compared to the various other calibers on the day! It was shooting very flat.
You can read BC on most projectile manufacturer websites, as it is specific to their offerings. Don't always believe what you see there though, as each manufacturer is sure to tell you their projectile is better than their rival
When it all comes down to it in the end, you have to be able to read the wind. The 6.5x47 will get you to do that. If you don't want to run the barrel burners, then settle on the 7mm 284.
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BATattack
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308s and 223s are used for f standard and don't compete AGAINST the more unusual calibers used in f open. They are two sepperate competitions held at the same event.
As a new shooter buying a high performance caliber that is hard to shoot and hard to keep in tune you'll probably just be burning powder and barrels and not learning a huge amount in the process.
My advice would be buy a 223 or 308 that isn't too exotic and doesn't wear out barrels and is cheap to feed and shoot it LOTS! then go to something like a 6.5x47 that is easy to tune, has good quality brass and start to learn that you have to plan 12 months in advance with components because they aren't as plentiful as the 223 and 308. Then step up to a 7mm or something on the upper end of the ballistic scale.
That's just my opinion for what it's worth.
As a new shooter buying a high performance caliber that is hard to shoot and hard to keep in tune you'll probably just be burning powder and barrels and not learning a huge amount in the process.
My advice would be buy a 223 or 308 that isn't too exotic and doesn't wear out barrels and is cheap to feed and shoot it LOTS! then go to something like a 6.5x47 that is easy to tune, has good quality brass and start to learn that you have to plan 12 months in advance with components because they aren't as plentiful as the 223 and 308. Then step up to a 7mm or something on the upper end of the ballistic scale.
That's just my opinion for what it's worth.
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AlanF
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Benz,
I think it can safely be said that Berger 7mm 180gn (VLD and Hybrid) projectiles are currently the most popular choice of shooters at the sharp end of Queens level competition. In 7mm there is also a good following of SMK 175 and Berger 168s, and some Australian examples from Antipodean Industrial and soon Copperhead. As far as what 7mm chambering to use, they vary in capacity from 7-08 to 7 WSM, with the single most common chambering being 284Win. It drives the 180s comfortably in the low to mid 2800s and is easy to tune to very high accuracy. Other chamberings in common use are 7 Shehane, 280AI, and 7mm SAUM, listed in increasing capacity between the 284 and the WSM. There are pluses and minuses with all of them, but the fact that the 284 has remained the most popular for many years is an endorsement of its qualities.
Alan
I think it can safely be said that Berger 7mm 180gn (VLD and Hybrid) projectiles are currently the most popular choice of shooters at the sharp end of Queens level competition. In 7mm there is also a good following of SMK 175 and Berger 168s, and some Australian examples from Antipodean Industrial and soon Copperhead. As far as what 7mm chambering to use, they vary in capacity from 7-08 to 7 WSM, with the single most common chambering being 284Win. It drives the 180s comfortably in the low to mid 2800s and is easy to tune to very high accuracy. Other chamberings in common use are 7 Shehane, 280AI, and 7mm SAUM, listed in increasing capacity between the 284 and the WSM. There are pluses and minuses with all of them, but the fact that the 284 has remained the most popular for many years is an endorsement of its qualities.
Alan
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Benz
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Thanks guys, that gives me plenty to follow up on.
Thanks Bartman for the references for information, I will as usual research them thoroughly. I had started out thinking of just buying a light chamber as I did have a good day on 80g .223 and peep sight but environmental factors were definitely in my favour that day, 2 weeks on I tried the same cal this time from only 700y Fstd and wind factor had me chasing my tail, it was then I knew I needed a heavier projectile. Granted light rounds -nothing teaches you windage like a light cal as was my exp back in my youth with .177 air and .22 hornet. I might just add an air.177 to my license to get back to that cheap and anytime ability to put some practice in, it worked back then and will have the same benefit now.
I managed my first possible last weekend from 600y on the 6.5x47L and it felt so good to put down a string quickly and accurately, repeatability from this exp left a great impression. One of my coaches Brad D put down 120... the weekend before on the same rifle.
You are right and forward planning is a necessity for where I want to be in the coming years.
Alan I will be trying a 7mm this weekend from another accomplished F classer but we will be down to 500y so it will probably just tell me how flat it is, I don't know if it is shehane or saum as the owner of the rifle mentioned he has used both, we will see on sunday.
Thanks guys for your advice and logical reasoning as always....respected and appreciated
Thanks Bartman for the references for information, I will as usual research them thoroughly. I had started out thinking of just buying a light chamber as I did have a good day on 80g .223 and peep sight but environmental factors were definitely in my favour that day, 2 weeks on I tried the same cal this time from only 700y Fstd and wind factor had me chasing my tail, it was then I knew I needed a heavier projectile. Granted light rounds -nothing teaches you windage like a light cal as was my exp back in my youth with .177 air and .22 hornet. I might just add an air.177 to my license to get back to that cheap and anytime ability to put some practice in, it worked back then and will have the same benefit now.
I managed my first possible last weekend from 600y on the 6.5x47L and it felt so good to put down a string quickly and accurately, repeatability from this exp left a great impression. One of my coaches Brad D put down 120... the weekend before on the same rifle.
You are right and forward planning is a necessity for where I want to be in the coming years.
Alan I will be trying a 7mm this weekend from another accomplished F classer but we will be down to 500y so it will probably just tell me how flat it is, I don't know if it is shehane or saum as the owner of the rifle mentioned he has used both, we will see on sunday.
Thanks guys for your advice and logical reasoning as always....respected and appreciated
Ben
In WA most people use 6 and 6.5mm rifles. You may not know this but there has been nobody so far in WA who has been able to get and keep any 7mm running at the level required for national competition. Courtz had his 7mm going well towards the end of last year, but in a prize meet I lead him all the way with to the final range with a 6.5- excuses aside with my barrel fouling, he did read the conditions better on the final range I feel and took a deserved win. In fact I was relegated from 1st to 3rd by Courtz and also another shooter who was shooting amazingly well with a 6mm.
If you want the most sheer accurate caliber Im afraid your going to end up with a 6BR or improved version of it. If you want something that will beat the wind you can do anything you want up to 8mm. But its accuracy may not be at the level required and there are some ranges across Aus that have limitations on energy as well. Remember we shoot for score and not for group size too, so a big boomer isnt going to guarantee a high score (and vice versa too) With that in mind I would recommend 3 calibers for FO shooting so far.
6BR (or improved versions if you want to go that way) 6.5x47L- won a queens with one, and 260 improved. The 260 improved isnt far away from 7mm performance both on ballistic charts and in practice. The only time they get beaten by 7's I believe is in really rough conditions and when there is vertical in conditions ie head or tail wind. I cant recommend a 7mm until I have one working and while its close, its still not repeatable in its habits. You will get to shoot it this weekend. Many shooters in the east have them humming so we know its possible and will keep working towards it.
I think it was the ACT queens or may be VRA queens this year, was won by a 6mm. Last WARA queens was won with a 6mm. Its all about tuning a rifle so its accurate and then reading wind. If you can read wind better than anyone else on the range it wont matter what you shoot so long as its accurate. Dont read into it more than it needs to be. Any accurate gun in the right hands has the ability to win.
To start with if you want to shoot FO, I still suggest build a 6.5x47L. Shoot a season or two with it, then when your ready and the 6.5 is hammering, chamber a 7mm and go to work on getting it to the same level. There is alot involved with learning wind reading, reloading for accuracy, wind reading, keeping a barrel healthy, wind reading, load tuning and wind reading.
If you want to shoot FS then you can build a 223 and 308 both on a barnard. Dont write the 223's off as contenders for FS at 1000yds either. They shoot very tight when tuned correctly and the 308s have been given a real run by many 223's over the years and very recently.
Make sure you understand that FS and FO do not compete together as Adam said. So you dont need to build a 6.5mm to try and beat the experienced guys winning with 308's.
Mike, Adam and Alan have all offered sound advice and have been shooting a long time. They also have smaller calibers and learnt their way up to successfully shooting 7mm calibers and are now very proficient at doing it. Ive shot for a few years now and $2000 later on my gun I am still working out the 7mm. I expect to have about $3000 invested before I have something ready to take to the national teams event next year.
EDIT- you will be shooting the shehane sunday. Its been shooting flat, but very wide. Im 99% sure I diagnosed it as a scope failure today. Sunday will be proof!
In WA most people use 6 and 6.5mm rifles. You may not know this but there has been nobody so far in WA who has been able to get and keep any 7mm running at the level required for national competition. Courtz had his 7mm going well towards the end of last year, but in a prize meet I lead him all the way with to the final range with a 6.5- excuses aside with my barrel fouling, he did read the conditions better on the final range I feel and took a deserved win. In fact I was relegated from 1st to 3rd by Courtz and also another shooter who was shooting amazingly well with a 6mm.
If you want the most sheer accurate caliber Im afraid your going to end up with a 6BR or improved version of it. If you want something that will beat the wind you can do anything you want up to 8mm. But its accuracy may not be at the level required and there are some ranges across Aus that have limitations on energy as well. Remember we shoot for score and not for group size too, so a big boomer isnt going to guarantee a high score (and vice versa too) With that in mind I would recommend 3 calibers for FO shooting so far.
6BR (or improved versions if you want to go that way) 6.5x47L- won a queens with one, and 260 improved. The 260 improved isnt far away from 7mm performance both on ballistic charts and in practice. The only time they get beaten by 7's I believe is in really rough conditions and when there is vertical in conditions ie head or tail wind. I cant recommend a 7mm until I have one working and while its close, its still not repeatable in its habits. You will get to shoot it this weekend. Many shooters in the east have them humming so we know its possible and will keep working towards it.
I think it was the ACT queens or may be VRA queens this year, was won by a 6mm. Last WARA queens was won with a 6mm. Its all about tuning a rifle so its accurate and then reading wind. If you can read wind better than anyone else on the range it wont matter what you shoot so long as its accurate. Dont read into it more than it needs to be. Any accurate gun in the right hands has the ability to win.
To start with if you want to shoot FO, I still suggest build a 6.5x47L. Shoot a season or two with it, then when your ready and the 6.5 is hammering, chamber a 7mm and go to work on getting it to the same level. There is alot involved with learning wind reading, reloading for accuracy, wind reading, keeping a barrel healthy, wind reading, load tuning and wind reading.
If you want to shoot FS then you can build a 223 and 308 both on a barnard. Dont write the 223's off as contenders for FS at 1000yds either. They shoot very tight when tuned correctly and the 308s have been given a real run by many 223's over the years and very recently.
Make sure you understand that FS and FO do not compete together as Adam said. So you dont need to build a 6.5mm to try and beat the experienced guys winning with 308's.
Mike, Adam and Alan have all offered sound advice and have been shooting a long time. They also have smaller calibers and learnt their way up to successfully shooting 7mm calibers and are now very proficient at doing it. Ive shot for a few years now and $2000 later on my gun I am still working out the 7mm. I expect to have about $3000 invested before I have something ready to take to the national teams event next year.
EDIT- you will be shooting the shehane sunday. Its been shooting flat, but very wide. Im 99% sure I diagnosed it as a scope failure today. Sunday will be proof!
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BATattack
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Yep agreed Brad! I think if you want to play with a 7mm basically plan on buying a barrel and having it chambered (around $900) and feeding it about 1500 rounds at about $2 a squeeze and wear it out figuring out what they like and don't like and after $4k worth of barrels and consumables you might know how to tune it! Haha
The 223 and 308 just allow you to experiment with a lot of different loading, tuning and cleaning methods at a lower cost per shot and with a barrel that will last about 4x as long. Then you can apply that to other calibers.
If f open is where you want to be i can't argue with a 6.5x47 or 6br to get you started! Great brass and dies off the shelf just load and shoot!
The 223 and 308 just allow you to experiment with a lot of different loading, tuning and cleaning methods at a lower cost per shot and with a barrel that will last about 4x as long. Then you can apply that to other calibers.
If f open is where you want to be i can't argue with a 6.5x47 or 6br to get you started! Great brass and dies off the shelf just load and shoot!
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jacksaligari
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Benz
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Yeah I hear you BAT, 6.5x 47L is a pretty damned good start, my second barrel and chamber for switch is still something I have time to consider, in addition having a .177 again will give me all the economic training without burning barrels, powder and money.
Great advice from all, Brad, Bat, Alan and Bart. EDIT: I see the emphasis on wind reading Brad, duly noted.
Interesting though in terms of a project cal in the 7mm, it seems like huge potential is there but the secrets of that are not easily discovered. As Brad Y has stated, the guys who are studying this round are experienced patient and well resourced, I have seen experienced guys shoot top scores one weekend then it seems like the rifle has a very temperamental split/personality as the next week she is all over the place.
Keeping in touch with your equipment and settings and recording everything along with ladder/load, projectile seating and so forth is a science in itself.
I love physics and look forward to the science of reloads in the 6.5L
Great advice from all, Brad, Bat, Alan and Bart. EDIT: I see the emphasis on wind reading Brad, duly noted.
Interesting though in terms of a project cal in the 7mm, it seems like huge potential is there but the secrets of that are not easily discovered. As Brad Y has stated, the guys who are studying this round are experienced patient and well resourced, I have seen experienced guys shoot top scores one weekend then it seems like the rifle has a very temperamental split/personality as the next week she is all over the place.
Keeping in touch with your equipment and settings and recording everything along with ladder/load, projectile seating and so forth is a science in itself.
I love physics and look forward to the science of reloads in the 6.5L
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mike H
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Sooner or later you may realise that a few years experience under your belt is a great help.Unfortunately coming from Western Australia where possibles are possible every week,you are being shielded from reality.At the moment 7mm's are on top.Even if F/Open is what you aspire to a period in F/Standard would teach a lot.I think a steady approach is in order.
Mike
Mike
Reading back on the original post I think the question is what would be the best caliber for a switch barrel with 6.5*47L to increase competitiveness at 1000 yards (or shoot all the way through - one ) down the track. And what has been consistently winning?
Really in this case there is no doubt. either a 284W, 284 Shehane or 280AI as being large 7mm based on the 308 bolt head. Of these you will find the first 2 are the "winningest" calibres around and appear on every Queens prize list in the Eastern states as a great percentage of the top 10 if not the winner. There has been some equipment lists published on here and Tony Berry (Ecomeat) and Alan fraser etc have been very good at putting them together. They don't appear anywhere else. Look in the events section and go back tot the Queens blogs.
A 6.5*47 and 284 is a great combination and with practice you may just find yourself shooting the 284 all the way through 300-1000 like some of us do. I actually find the 284 is an extremely easy rifle to tune, very forgiving and holds accuracy for >2000 rounds. Nearly all my barrels hold the same load and have a "wide" node. It does have some recoil though that needs to be handled correctly in design of rifle, front and rear rest as well as shooter control and experience - That will all come if you decide to go that way.
Really in this case there is no doubt. either a 284W, 284 Shehane or 280AI as being large 7mm based on the 308 bolt head. Of these you will find the first 2 are the "winningest" calibres around and appear on every Queens prize list in the Eastern states as a great percentage of the top 10 if not the winner. There has been some equipment lists published on here and Tony Berry (Ecomeat) and Alan fraser etc have been very good at putting them together. They don't appear anywhere else. Look in the events section and go back tot the Queens blogs.
A 6.5*47 and 284 is a great combination and with practice you may just find yourself shooting the 284 all the way through 300-1000 like some of us do. I actually find the 284 is an extremely easy rifle to tune, very forgiving and holds accuracy for >2000 rounds. Nearly all my barrels hold the same load and have a "wide" node. It does have some recoil though that needs to be handled correctly in design of rifle, front and rear rest as well as shooter control and experience - That will all come if you decide to go that way.
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AlanF
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DaveMc wrote:...There has been some equipment lists published on here and Tony Berry (Ecomeat) and Alan fraser etc have been very good at putting them together...
I need to apologise about promising to do one for the NRAA Queens then dropping the ball. Its actually quite a chore when you have a field size in the 20s or 30s, particularly when you don't know all the faces. Its probably best done in future as a divided task e.g. allocate a third of the field to each of 3 "reporters". Doing that, it would make it easier to include more details such as scope reticule, rings, barrel length, twist rate etc. I won't be at the QRA Queens, but maybe we can find 3 volunteers who can get together and produce a "superior" equipment list?
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