Two nuts behind the bolt, no three or four!

[williada]

Two nuts behind the bolt, no three or four!

I would like to have a forum discussion with regard to the respective roles of the captains, and coaches that would get the best out of the team performance seeing team shooting has a big focus at the moment.

How often has the best gear not performed well when people interact in a team. What is it about confidence, ego, participation and technique that shooters bring that coaches need to manage; and what condition reading skills, people skills and group diagnosis should coaches and captains possess aside from housekeeping duties?

It seems to me, that many F class teams short on numbers do include the inexperienced team shooters as many top individual shooters from other codes are now joining our ranks.

Winning is a great feeling, but winning with dignity and respect for the opposition is everlasting and knowing how to lose with grace is equally important because Murphy’s law can override Newton’s laws and over confidence can be misplaced.

Brian Titcombe a mentor of mine, over 40 years ago, said he was the sacrificial lamb in the Australian team. I asked what he meant, and he explained every time there was a rough patch he was used to fire sighters for the coaches before letting other shooters continue with their shoot, to the detriment of his personal score. He was proud of that and was not egocentric. That was his job and it was because he was the best shot and was a team man.

So what do we do with new shooters who fear failure, or worry too much about the perfect picture on tough days. Should coaches be aware that different front rests and rear bags take more time to settle than others? Do they balance the signal to go, with the shooters rhythm knowing full well the wind has changed but disturbing the aim of a slower shooter has worse consequences.

A frank discussion of those little things and expectations could help new shooters who aspire to be members of high performing teams.

[Cameron Mc]

I love your topic Dave!
I wonder if this can be kept "in house" as for Australia only.
Thinking 2017 and I know those who we beat are watching.

Cam

[BATattack]

Winning is a great feeling, but winning with dignity and respect for the opposition is everlasting and knowing how to lose with grace is equally important because Murphy’s law can override Newton’s laws and over confidence can be misplaced.

That is a very very true statement!! A lot of the time there is usually a very small percentage gap between first and last and there's a good chance that next week you could go from hero to zero! Enjoy your wins but stay humble because tomorrow might be different.

[aaronraad]

Interesting topic Dave.

Could I suggest maybe drawing on the those with the team shooting experience (F-Class and other) to describe some definite failures or those actions with a high probability of failure? Just thinking this might bring some limits around this vast topic...I know I need limits

[DannyS]

Dave, having been a member of the Victorian State F Class Standard Team to compete in Tassie in 2014. Our coach, Noel Osborn, did a fantastic job. As also did our Captain, John Eland.

The difference, I see, having shot team matches in TR, is that in TR, as a shooter you can't use a spotting scope, but in F Class, you see everything. It is so much harder on the Coach, as you can see how much they adjust your scope and yes, at times, someone has to be used as a scrapegoat, tester, etc.

The shooters need full confidence in their coach. I have tried coaching some shooters, some good , some bad, but when some F class shooters aim off because they think differently, it doesn't help.

In team shooting, the coach is king. If you can't accept that, then don't join in.

Cheers
Danny

[Brad Y]

My personal 2c if its worth anything.

The first time I had ever really shot as part of a team was in Tasmania in 2014. We took over who we could get to go and gave it our best effort. Its my opinion that after completing the practice day, my team was behind the others in terms of strategies and what we brought to the firing line. However everyone did their best and we really enjoyed it. I also really enjoyed coaching for the last 1000yd match and would be very interested in doing more of that in the future. It would have been good to have known and bit more about it all before.

What I would like to see is a bit more proactive work from the top in encouraging the state RA's and squads to develop team shooting a bit more. If coaching and captain guidance came from the top we could have applied it a little better possibly. For one, a huge benefit I think would have been a presentation on coaching/captain/shooter roles and responsibilities from senior members of the FCWC team to the states to help develop it. These are the people that all new potential team shooters including myself look up to. And while there may be enough coaches and captains around for a while, there is always going to be a need to bring new blood into it. Sports like AFL, NRL, Basketball etc all have very clear pathways to get into their respective codes, then they go one step further in developing leadership role (captains). It seems that at that point the captains often take on coaching roles once they have finished playing. It would be good to see a clear path to get into it, achievable and realistic goals to reach and opportunities to excel at state, national and international level.

I have my ideas of what makes a good team shooter, captain and coach, but they arent based on much experience so I will keep them to myself. Hopefully there is the opportunity to work at it and be able to get one of those shiny nationals medals- or maybe even an FCWC medal too.

[Tim N]

Hey Cam,
Do you often feel you are being watched
In house for this one would be best.
I have limited experience with team shooting but from what I have seen team players are required not individuals, leave your wind reading skills at home, let the coach worry about that and enjoy the event.

[bartman007]

I for one look back to our TR State Teams that have been competing for Decades. They have a wealth of knowledge built up over that time.

I for one welcome working with the TR crowd to help raise our level further.

As for the differences in Classes, I see that as a customisation to the structures that have been in place for so long. The key thing that I see F Class brining to the mix, is the ENJOYMENT factor. Being a little less serious, so that we can enjoy the competition even more

[williada]

Way to go Michael.

It would be great if we could leave the politics out of this one and be objective. It’s about training and expectations Tim, as you rightly empathize in your by-line. If there is no level of expectation there is certainly no level of training to fall back on.

Its about establishing the right atmosphere so prior preparation can prevent piss poor performance – the 6 P’s, so that all shooters experience meaningful participation to grow the sport so good messages can be brought back to the club level and the community through the local press.

If I understand the implications of Brad’s comments, it’s about understanding where people are coming from and how they learn over time where others are coming from to get the fit right and mechanics to develop a winning team. Its about how people perceive the world and make decisions, we are all different but we all think we are doing the right thing. True this one is a bit of a sacred cow. Myers-Briggs personality indicators are still used extensively in high level employment and armed services today or derivations of them for the sole purpose of finding the jobs people are most comfortable with and effective in. A BHP recruitment officer once told me they she wouldn’t place an engineer in a management position unless they had the right aptitude and training.

While we want to get our gear up to a professional standard, it would be good to lay the foundations for a professional team and recognise the diamonds in the rough that need a little guidance to sparkle. David.

[ecomeat]

I had never even seen Teams shooting done until I went to Tasmania as part of the Qld F Open Team in early 2014.
When I put my hand up to nominate for that team, I honestly just assumed that they wanted nominations from shooters who were going down to the Tasmanian Queens, who would be prepared to "be considered a part of a Qld Team". I had absolutely no idea that it was a prestigious, stand alone event, shot some days before the Queens itself. I sure as hell didn't know what it was really all about.
I am an old fart but a newby at the same time, having never been on a rifle range till 4 years ago. I have shot and hunted my whole life, but have NIL target rifle shooting background. I have never even fired a shot from a typical TR rig. So in that respect, my serious lack of experience puts me in the same position as all of those scope shooters who are turning up at a rifle range for the first time , wanting to have a go at this F Class thingamy we have heard about.
Those of us without the years of experience in TR that so many of the best F Class shooters have are basically all in the same boat when it comes to Teams shooting. We have to learn what it is, how it works, how to participate meaningfully. We have never seen it, we are still learning about wind reading every time we shoot, we are still learning about normal practices and protocols.......so many will still be quite shy and a little bit nervous.
Most will nearly have to be coerced into even trying "Coaching". I personally ran away from it and made excuses at every opportunity until recently.
Tasmania was a very eye opening experience for me. I got to be part of an awesome experience that left a lasting impression on me. One of the strongest was of the intensity and dedication that coaches at that level have to display. I was gob smacked at the level of concentration that all Coaches down there displayed. No bloody wonder that some people are driven to drink.
In my meagre couple of years shooting F Class, I had been extremely fortunate in the results Dept, and had managed to keep a few of the "names" honest on the odd occasion, and make them work for it. When shooting off the mound my focus had always been on ME, repeatedly trying to release the perfect shot, willing it to be an X every time. Quite honestly, I want to win every time I shoot. I don't think that is necessarily unhealthy.......as I get just as much reward from the comerarderie and being part of the sport. In my first Sydney Queens a couple of year ago, I had a 2 point lead going in to Day 3, and dropped 7 for the day, versus Rod Davies dropping 4 . I ended up 2nd overall and Rod beat me on "X's". A good friend in Qld who is a world class bench rest shooter was talking to me after I got back home, and he asked me what I envisaged when I pulled the trigger each time on the last range. When I told him that in my mind i was seeing an X for a result for every shot, he said "wrong answer !" ........."you should have been seeing your mate Rod Davies face in the middle of the X ring every shot ! You didn't want to win badly enough"
He was probably half right.....I probably didn't want to win badly enough.....because I was getting a bigger buzz than he would ever realise just being there, shooting well, loving every minute of the whole experience, just being part of the whole event.
THEN, I went to Tasmania and experienced Teams shooting, with and against some of the best sportsmen and best people on the planet. It was a quantum leap, and whole new paradigm for me. Now I was willing and wanting Julie and Cam McEwan, Mark Fairbairn and Col Sutton to shoot 60's with 10..... instead of (the more normal) hoping they might drop a couple to improve MY chances.
Now it was about the Team...and what a great thing that was ! It was one of the most enjoyable and satisfying experiences that I have ever had.
I also got to witness the awesome Team skills of some of our competitors and had a rather sudden realization that in Qld, we were years behind some of the other States. SA, VIC and the Nort Qld teams especially impressed me with genuine, results driven Teamwork. I was in a daze for about a week !
We had great coaches for both F Open and F Standard. We had some very accomplished shooters. But the opposition showed the results of regular, disciplined and totally professional "Team Shooting" practice .
I flew home from Tasmania before the Queens, as I couldn't take that much time off, but I was so invigorated and impressed by the whole team thing that you would have been excused for thinking we had won the bloody title.
2015 has seen a wholly refreshed approach to Teams here in Qld. We now have a lot of "good shots" who really want to be part of it. Selectors will now actually have a job to do, instead of hoping they get enough nominations to field a team. District Rifle Associations are now practicing regularly, and plenty of new faces are stepping forward prepared to have a go at Coaching, as well as wanting to shoot.
It is a huge advance from my very first partial look at Coached Teams about 3 years ago when I nominated for the Country side in our annual City Vs Country. Scopies were to go first, and I was told to lay down and get ready. An older TR guy came over.....sat down beside me and looked at my gear....said "Ah you bloody Scopies are all the same. Can't tell you a f#+€ ing thing", and then got up, took his stool and left.
So we are making progress up here in Qld, and I think it's all about participation, encouragement, practice, and discipline. The more shooters that get to really experience successful Team shooting all over Australia in the next two years, the stronger the chances of a successful Australian trip to Canada in 2017. It has to start at the local level first, but what an awesome experience it is.
Won't it be great if the Selectors for Canada have 20 or 30 well skilled genuine Team shooters to pick from !
Tony

[williada]

Tony,

That is simply awe inspiring stuff. That passion, enthusiasm and that killer instinct hat has been shaped by your team bonding would put a bit of steel into any team and would draw others to be part of the action.

If others feel they are comfortable contributing, I would like to hear more because just maybe we can find some common ground that inductees into team shooting can benefit from, without giving the os competitors the keys to the city. The latter is not the point, its about setting expectations, walking before we are up and running.

Part of growing the sport is belonging, and team shooting has the capacity to nurture that. Thankyou to those contributors who have had the courage to share their experiences to date. I have had quite a few private emails which remain confidential. They are all valuable and something can be learned from many different perspectives for an objective evaluation of the way we do it. David.

[DannyS]

Gee Tony, for a man of few words

Cheers
Danny

[BATattack]

Hey Dave. . . . . . I recon Tony is trying to give you some competition in the longest text department!!

Brad I know what you mean. I saw what you guys did in tazzy and in an local match it would be an effective way of dealing with people using different equipment and getting shots away quickly and in contrast the NQLD team had all the bells and whistles!!

I guess there is a balance to be found with what the members of your team are comfortable with. No point forcing a coach to plot if that's not in line with their thought process or making someone who is nervous shoot first type of thing. No point having all the plotters and coms gear if everyone isn't comfortable and confident with it.

I was lucky to be involved with a team that built a structure loosely based on what was used at raton within the limitations of team numbers and keeping it simple but only due to Richard, Stuart and mikes experience. If it wasn't for them I would've been in the same boat as you so i see your point of needing education but at the same time I don't think you can copy and paste what works for one state and try it at yours and expect success straight away.

Since then most of the local f class teams and my home club have been trying to follow that template but we are still working toward growing the numbers within the teams to try and replicate the team structure of bigger events. We could probably put together smaller teams of better shooters but it won't grow unless you bring new ones into it.

With that everyone is different, especially at local level you have less people to choose from so the less chance of getting ones that are all the same/ similar. You have to juggle the team order around people's personality, what equipment to use, right or left handed. When I coach I don't like plotting but Richard does so locally you have to be prepared to work around people's strengths and put a backup where their weakness is.

I'm not an expert like some others but to me its a matter of observing and determining every individuals strengths and weaknesses and structuring a team around those factors then giving every team member their "job" description to define a role and how it may change in a given situation. Being involved in construction and maintenance I always like to have a plan A, B through Z! Hopefully you never need to use it but having everyone on the same page when the worst happens makes a difference.

Sorry for rambling! Haha

And Tony I think your rite. The more you can build your local competition then stronger the state team and the stronger the national team.

[Cameron Mc]

Hey Cam,
Do you often feel you are being watched
In house for this one would be best.
I have limited experience with team shooting but from what I have seen team players are required not individuals, leave your wind reading skills at home, let the coach worry about that and enjoy the event.

G day Tim
I started team shooting in 1979 at a district level in TR. I love being part of a team and playing some role whether coach or shooter is very satisfying to say the least. Even in defeat the experience is shared by the team. Of course if your team wins the feeling is hard to describe. I still pinch myself occasionally and say "I was part of the Winning FCWC 2013 Team". So many things went into that successful trip to the USA. Dave has kicked off the discussion and I am sure many useful peces of advice will come forward. You are spot on with what you said regarding team players not individuals being the key. Keep in mind the coaches are a very, very important part of the team. It's a 2 way street. If the shooters have absolute full confidence in their coaches and vise versa, a winning combination can be formed.
I guess what I was trying to say in the earlier post is we need to guard technical "secrets". We had these in 2013 and used these with many other skills for success.
I for one am happy to contribute to this discussion. Building team spirit starts on your home range I believe. Go to each club shoot with the intention to hone your technique and develop your gear to be super competative. It does not matter if you win or lose at the club shoots. What matters is what you learn. As time goes on and that "magic formular" is found your brain will lock in the "positives". A good team player must have an absolutely positve attitude with all aspects of the team. If all team members think in this positve way the team will become stronger. Good communication in a champion team is an absolute must. Everyone needs to be on the same page....
Enough for now....hope it makes sense

Cam

[williada]

Yes Adam, it is a paradigm shift of enlightenment. Tony was lying doggo me thinks. Not doing so bad yourself. Rambling no. Points are easily understood, considered, and sufficient depth so as not to bore the reader who wants to learn. Sure beats, the nods, winks and grunt code that hides so many little gems from the uninitiated. You make a man proud.

Seriously, what you said is on the money in that leaders of inexperienced teams have to modify their program to cater for individual differences. Agreed, it does not all have to be written down if people know their roles by having it explained on a one to one basis when you can have undivided attention. Without repetition, we forget 50% of what we have read in 18 hours, its considerably less if you listen and the facts seem to change, so your brain has a way of filtering what’s important to you anyway. Its mostly the experienced in the school of hard knocks that plan for contingencies or changing circumstances.

Now most seniors would have to agree they have to write things down and without a routine and eventually passing with distinction in the school of hard knocks, they would be screwed.

We will have to give this boy a gong. I’m reminded of the humour in Foghorn Leghorn telling that little chicken hawk to, “Spit it out boy, spit it out...” The little chicken hawk was a little quicker than the old rooster. Yeh, I ramble on at times. David.