The F-Open Re-Think Courtesy Of Berger Bullets

IanP · Post by **IanP** » Tue Apr 29, 2014 10:53 am

I'm on a ballistic roll at the moment with whats happening in Australia and overseas and my next project is about to get started, based solely on a bullet. I have to confess straight up that for me this sport of ours is as much about the technical issues as the shooting. I figure I'm not alone in this and would like to hear what others are considering when Berger finally roll out the 7mm, 195gr Hybrid.

I already am shooting a bullet that has a similar BC in the 30 cal 230gr Hybrid but if we can believe the info out there, the 195gr bullet will be a little higher again. You dont need to know anything technical to understand the lighter bullet will have less recoil if shot from the same weight gun.

The 300WM I'm shooting the heavy 230s from is really nice to shoot and at 1000 rounds down the barrel for only 1.5 thou throat erosion looks like giving a minimum of 2000 rounds. Scoping the barrel after coming back from the Bendigo Queens showed me that I needed to clean a little more vigorously but also showed a barrel in very good condition! Big bullets, slow powder and low 2850fps velocities seem to agree with the 300WM.

After doing a little research on 7mm's capable of launching the 195gr bullets without destroying cases I came up with an unusual option. First thought was of course the Saum then maybe the 7mm-300WSM, both renowned for their accuracy and barrel burning abilities. Then I figured why not consider the 7mm-300WM.

Well the 7-300WM is not a new idea and there are plenty using it in the USA mostly for hunting. A little more research and a few questions answered about its grouping ability using 180gr Hybrids and Vlds and it turns out to be a viable option. I have plenty of cases and the existing dies will work fine for FLS and NS but I will opt for a custom seater. I tried using my Redding Type S bushing neck sizer and stepped down using 3 bushings to the 7mm tension I would use for loading. A perfectly formed 7-300WM case emerged.

Next I got JGS to make me up a reamer to match specs based on my current match 300WM reamer using suitable neck clearance for no-neck turn cases. Now all I need to do is take my low count 7mm Krieger barrel (Shehane) and put a bigger hole in front of the 7mm bore to take the case.

Most people at this stage will be saying why use such a big case and why stuff up a very accurate Shehane barrel. My answer is simply that if you dont give things a try you will never know if works or not, even though in this case lots of people have done this successfully before. I have found the 300WM Norma/Nosler cases to be superb and low maintenance. I have found that heavy bullets and slow burning powder, (AR2225) are a recipe for long barrel life. So now its time to see if the theory matches the practice.

There is no doubt the Berger 195gr high BC bullet will shake up F-Open in more ways than one and I'm interested to hear from anyone with a plan to put it to good use!

Ian

DaveMc · Post by **DaveMc** » Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:28 pm

What twist are you going to run with Ian? - I heard rumours the prototype was hard to get working (Not from a good source mind you just rumours probably started by non-us teams.) Perhaps more case and higher spin rates might help drive it along if this is the case??

IanP · Post by **IanP** » Tue Apr 29, 2014 1:42 pm

DaveMc wrote:What twist are you going to run with Ian? - I heard rumours the prototype was hard to get working (Not from a good source mind you just rumours probably started by non-us teams.) Perhaps more case and higher spin rates might help drive it along if this is the case??

Dave, I read on a thread with a direct contribution from Bryan Litz that the bullet requires a 8.5 twist. There are a couple of guys I shoot with in SA ordering Kriegers in 8.5T for the 195's. My Shehane barrel is a 9 twist so will be interesting to see if it works ok.

The 7-300WM could also run the 180 Hybrids at high velocities if I wanted to but I would rather run high BC bullets slow if given the option. A one case solution for both 30 cal and 7mm is appealing to me. The 230s can drill the centre out at 300 yards so I'm also over running two guns for short and long range.

The appeal for me with the 7mm is simply to see how well the 195s perform. A one gun solution in both 7mm and 30cal would be a very nice option, the only problem being which one to take to the range. Nice to have two guns share the load at weekly comps.

If I find the link to the forum with Byan's post I'll put it up! http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/ ... let-85792/

I'm certain I have read a post from BL saying a 9T should work, but it is not in the link I have provided above.

Yep I did, its on page 24

Ian

IanP · Post by **IanP** » Tue Apr 29, 2014 2:15 pm

Ok I found Bryan's post on using a 9T barrel with this bullet. I also just run the numbers thru the Miller Stability Formula and at 2900 fps in a 9T barrel the SG =1.35. So a 9T barrel is fine for most anywhere in the world except maybe in extremely cold climes!

Re: Berger to introduce 7mm 195 gr EOL Hybrid Hunting Bullet
1:9" may get you by, but to be clear, the twist recommended by Berger for good stability in all conditions is 1:8.5". It's a good idea to cheat on the fast side of twist with these long tipsy bullets.
-Bryan
__________________
Bryan Litz
Ballistician

Ian

macguru · Post by **macguru** » Tue Apr 29, 2014 8:16 pm

This is where I first read about the 7mm-300W

http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowled ... tical.html

He is dead keen and his website is well worth a read , even if you are not interested in hunting.

If you were to rebarrel, surely you would go 1 in 8 just to be on the safe side ? If you were ordering a new barrel i mean... I think berger would quote 1 in 9 just so as to not limit their target market for the 195gr.

Q: For the 230 berger 30 cal, is 1 in 10 OK ? There are not alot of 1 in 9 s out there although you can special order them ...

IanP · Post by **IanP** » Tue Apr 29, 2014 8:48 pm

macguru wrote:This is where I first read about the 7mm-300W

http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowled ... tical.html

He is dead keen and his website is well worth a read , even if you are not interested in hunting.

If you were to rebarrel, surely you would go 1 in 8 just to be on the safe side ? If you were ordering a new barrel i mean... I think berger would quote 1 in 9 just so as to not limit their target market for the 195gr.

Q: For the 230 berger 30 cal, is 1 in 10 OK ? There are not alot of 1 in 9 s out there although you can special order them ...

Thanks macguru! that is a very interesting website.

I am using a 32", 5R, 10T barrel and it works a treat. Cant see any need to go to a faster twist. I have an accuracy node that spans 2 grains of AR2225 powder and I can change from using Nosler brass to Norma mid string without any change to group size. Its probably because they are the same brass as Norma makes the Nosler brass cases in 300WM.

Ian

Seddo · Post by **Seddo** » Wed Apr 30, 2014 7:59 am

I have a 7mm lap mag reamer and a 9 twist barrel sitting here for this bullet when it comes out.

Norm · Post by **Norm** » Wed Apr 30, 2014 11:29 am

I have a match 7mm Rem Mag reamer with a .312" neck and a 32" barrel 8 twist sitting here ready to go.
Seddo, we will have to compare results when they are both up and flying.

BATattack · Post by **BATattack** » Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:11 pm

Norm wrote:I have a match 7mm Rem Mag reamer with a .312" neck and a 32" barrel 8 twist sitting here ready to go.
Seddo, we will have to compare results when they are both up and flying.

That's the way I'd be going if I wanted something bigger than the saum. Dies and brass off the shelf at your local gun shop.

For me the saum provides more than enough powder to ram down a 7mm tube. I think you need at least 1000 to 1500 rounds of match grade barrel life out of a cartridge.

By the time you do run in, fire forming, load testing, record accurate zeros, develop a cleaning routine and learn a barrels idiosyncrasies the barrel is toast before you get any serious matches out of it.

Seddo · Post by **Seddo** » Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:19 pm

BATattack wrote:develop a cleaning routine and learn a barrels idiosyncrasies the barrel is toast before you get any serious matches out of it.

your not talking about me there.

My 7mm Rem Mag is a 28" 9 twist so it will be good to see what i can do with that as well.

IanP · Post by **IanP** » Wed Apr 30, 2014 7:08 pm

The 7mm Rem Mag is a 7-300WM's twin brother, well almost. Similar capacity with the WM holding around 6 grains more powder and they can even share a die or two it seems.

Lots of info, (75 pages) on the 7-300WM and similar here http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/ ... mag-51404/

The 195gr Berger Hybrids should be on the market this year and from what I've been reading there's a lot of shooters lining up to buy them!

Ian

BATattack · Post by **BATattack** » Wed Apr 30, 2014 11:10 pm

Seddo wrote:
BATattack wrote:develop a cleaning routine and learn a barrels idiosyncrasies the barrel is toast before you get any serious matches out of it.

your not talking about me there.

My 7mm Rem Mag is a 28" 9 twist so it will be good to see what i can do with that as well.

That's just an opinion . . . . . no facts were harmed in the making! Haha at this stage I think knowing my barrel inside and out is worth more points than a slight ballistic advantage. But only time will tell.

clintaus · Post by **clintaus** » Sun Jun 19, 2016 11:42 am

I ran them yesterday in competition the misus and I shot a possible hers was 60 with 6 mine was 60 with 4 and second string she shot 59 and I got 58 was a teams shoot but at 800 with just a bit of a load was great for first day out they look promising. If anyone has a few hundred they want to get rid of please pm me.

The F-Open Re-Think Courtesy Of Berger Bullets

The F-Open Re-Think Courtesy Of Berger Bullets

Re: The F-Open Re-Think Courtesy Of Berger Bullets