A lot of shooters - both NRAA types and others - have for 50 years grown up with the attitude that you just keep firing shots in the vain hope that eventually one will be a hit. It is ingrained behavior and it takes a lot of breaking. If only the culprits would have to face wire repair on an eTarget they might change attitude. We once had one bullet cut 7 wires in one hit and that was a major repair !!!! Of course on web sites people just blast away and accept misses. I am beginning to detest the damage popular web sites cause to potential shooters.
Yes - I think a firm RO is very important. We are lucky that our backstop shows hits well through a skeleton frame unless the ground is saturated (like now !) and shooters are very willing to use it.
I think Tim's idea has a lot of merit. So many - even experienced shooters - keep asking me the come-up from some other distance it is staggering. Perhaps a very simple table could be printed on score cards. I always had a printout of a range table glued onto my forend. BUT nothing works if the shooter cannot remember what distance he last shot. A small 'plate' of matt finish Laminex or Formica fixed to the butt or forend will take writing in pencil which can be rubbed out with a cloth or fingers. We are all getting older and more forgetful these days !!
OK - this thread has diverged from the original which I think is a good idea on some ranges but will not work on others. But it is an important topic as more and more clubs acquire some eTargets.
Peter Smith.
Zeroing for ETs
Moderator: Mod
-
- Posts: 883
- Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2005 12:15 pm
- Location: Innisfail, Far North QLD.
-
- Posts: 7502
- Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 8:22 pm
- Location: Maffra, Vic
Re: Zeroing for ETs
E-targets come with pluses and minuses. One of the biggest pluses is that because marking is very quick and marker changes aren't required, they shorten the shooting day quite significantly. On the other hand, time spent maintaining them is at least as much as manual targets, and much more when sensor/cable damage is common. I think the least the rest of us can do out of consideration for the ET maintenance crews is give back a little of that saved time and relief from manual marking by willingly and cheerfully doing a thorough zero check when there is any doubt whatsoever (hmm that felt good ).
-
- Posts: 896
- Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 7:11 pm
- Location: Townsville
Re: Zeroing for ETs
There are those that have failed to do their come ups and those that will. There are those that have wound the wrong way and those that will.
Really, the only kind of stupid is believing it won't happen.
On manual targets it was only ever a bit of frustration, on ETs it's potentially an expensive mistake and one that most ranges would like to avoid.
I've never thought laser boresighters had much use but the old A4 range target (the vertical line with a crossbar for each range) in front of each firing lane would allow a quick and easy check.
Aim at the aiming mark and, regardless of calibre, the laser should be pretty damned close to the desired crossbar.
Really, the only kind of stupid is believing it won't happen.
On manual targets it was only ever a bit of frustration, on ETs it's potentially an expensive mistake and one that most ranges would like to avoid.
I've never thought laser boresighters had much use but the old A4 range target (the vertical line with a crossbar for each range) in front of each firing lane would allow a quick and easy check.
Aim at the aiming mark and, regardless of calibre, the laser should be pretty damned close to the desired crossbar.
-
- Posts: 553
- Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:33 pm
- Location: Chinchilla
Re: Zeroing for ETs
You’ll notice, the ones who have trouble hitting what they aim at, are usually missing when the maintenance/setup is happening, perhaps pay for what you shoot will get the message across? We’ve now had to insist anyone without solid data, chrono and zero early on the morning to avoid inconveniencing everyone else
-
- Posts: 883
- Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2005 12:15 pm
- Location: Innisfail, Far North QLD.
Re: Zeroing for ETs
I just did some calculations based on Tim's 3&3 rule at 30m. This more or less works out for hot F loads up to 700 or 800y. You can come up with a 3&3&5 rule that goes further back.
BUT it fails for other more common rifles. Thus the simplicity is lost. And I think implementing it on many ranges will be impossible on safety grounds.
One thing to remember is that most eTargets if used at 300y will have a much larger face than a 300y paper target. It should not be too hard to get on target at 300y on a large target. You have over 10 minutes to play with on an 8 ft frame.
In any serious competition catering for a wide range of distances, I believe it is very important that the distances progress from short to long. Starting with a special shoot at - say - 1000y, is asking for trouble and it is not really fair on people from many of the shortened ranges. Working back, one can fairly easily extrapolate the come up by simply plotting all the shot distance elevation settings as the shoot progresses day by day. I did this once when I left all my data at home and had to shoot both a major shoot plus a match shoot afterwards. It worked very well.
Peter Smith.
BUT it fails for other more common rifles. Thus the simplicity is lost. And I think implementing it on many ranges will be impossible on safety grounds.
One thing to remember is that most eTargets if used at 300y will have a much larger face than a 300y paper target. It should not be too hard to get on target at 300y on a large target. You have over 10 minutes to play with on an 8 ft frame.
In any serious competition catering for a wide range of distances, I believe it is very important that the distances progress from short to long. Starting with a special shoot at - say - 1000y, is asking for trouble and it is not really fair on people from many of the shortened ranges. Working back, one can fairly easily extrapolate the come up by simply plotting all the shot distance elevation settings as the shoot progresses day by day. I did this once when I left all my data at home and had to shoot both a major shoot plus a match shoot afterwards. It worked very well.
Peter Smith.
-
- Posts: 2211
- Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2008 7:55 pm
- Location: Brisbane
Re: Zeroing for ETs
pjifl wrote:In any serious competition catering for a wide range of distances, I believe it is very important that the distances progress from short to long. Starting with a special shoot at - say - 1000y, is asking for trouble and it is not really fair on people from many of the shortened ranges. Working back, one can fairly easily extrapolate the come up by simply plotting all the shot distance elevation settings as the shoot progresses day by day.
Peter,
You've overlooked Murphy's law of windage and elevation:
There is no aiming device designed that a shooter cannot wind it so far in the opposite direction so as to miss the target.
John
-
- Posts: 896
- Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 7:11 pm
- Location: Townsville
Re: Zeroing for ETs
If the objective is to confirm a zero at all ranges and the unavoidable requirements that must be met are
1 Not to miss the target
2 Bullet must land in the butt stop
The only solution I have is to not shoot a bullet at all!
The only option I can come up with is to use short range "check target" and laser bore scope
Attached is one I did for my 210 FTR rifle. From 300yds to 600m it does closely match everything I shoot from 155s to 215s, 7 SUAM, 6.5 SLR and 6 Dasher. It sure looks close enough to hit the target (pending wind on the day!)
Set it 30m forward, and it "should" simply be a case of aim at the circle and set the elevation, the laser should hit the relevant horizontal. This would check elevation and zero windage. Alternatively, if there is no laser but you have a definite 300m zero. Turn the target upside down, put the gun in a rest and aim at the 300m crossbar. Wind ip and the reticle should drop to the range wound to.
It's never going to make it to a competition range but for weekend shoots where target protection is necessary it should help.
I've added details of how to set the spreadsheet so if formatting doesn't happen it can be set to be the right size. (1/10th" squares) and should print accurately.
Also the conversion rates so you can use known elevation adjustments to make one accurate for any gun.
1 Not to miss the target
2 Bullet must land in the butt stop
The only solution I have is to not shoot a bullet at all!
The only option I can come up with is to use short range "check target" and laser bore scope
Attached is one I did for my 210 FTR rifle. From 300yds to 600m it does closely match everything I shoot from 155s to 215s, 7 SUAM, 6.5 SLR and 6 Dasher. It sure looks close enough to hit the target (pending wind on the day!)
Set it 30m forward, and it "should" simply be a case of aim at the circle and set the elevation, the laser should hit the relevant horizontal. This would check elevation and zero windage. Alternatively, if there is no laser but you have a definite 300m zero. Turn the target upside down, put the gun in a rest and aim at the 300m crossbar. Wind ip and the reticle should drop to the range wound to.
It's never going to make it to a competition range but for weekend shoots where target protection is necessary it should help.
I've added details of how to set the spreadsheet so if formatting doesn't happen it can be set to be the right size. (1/10th" squares) and should print accurately.
Also the conversion rates so you can use known elevation adjustments to make one accurate for any gun.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
-
- Posts: 896
- Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 7:11 pm
- Location: Townsville
Re: Zeroing for ETs
johnk wrote:pjifl wrote:In any serious competition catering for a wide range of distances, I believe it is very important that the distances progress from short to long. Starting with a special shoot at - say - 1000y, is asking for trouble and it is not really fair on people from many of the shortened ranges. Working back, one can fairly easily extrapolate the come up by simply plotting all the shot distance elevation settings as the shoot progresses day by day.
Peter,
You've overlooked Murphy's law of windage and elevation:
There is no aiming device designed that a shooter cannot wind it so far in the opposite direction so as to miss the target.
John
In my experience, it's only Australia that won't let shooters zero on the range.
At the SW Nationals they accept that people are travelling, arriving that night to assemble guns and shoot that morning. Zero chance to check zeros.
To accommodate this, the first range of each comp allows unlimited sighters, to be shot within the range time limit. You can put 50 rounds down range if you want, all into a target face. You then state "For the record" get confirmation from the scorer and it's game on with 2 optional sighters and whatever time you have left.
At the WCs in Canada all teams were allowed to put rounds into the butt stop before the targets went up. That was a palma match so straight in with a long range.
It's not hard to provide something.
-
- Posts: 883
- Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2005 12:15 pm
- Location: Innisfail, Far North QLD.
Re: Zeroing for ETs
it's not hard to provide something.
YES. BUT there seems to be enormous resistance to anything sensible in Australia relating to blow off shots and extra sighters on the first range. I have given up making suggestions. I don't want to see a free for all on every range but we could do much better as an organization to promote a good compromise.
Peter Smith.
YES. BUT there seems to be enormous resistance to anything sensible in Australia relating to blow off shots and extra sighters on the first range. I have given up making suggestions. I don't want to see a free for all on every range but we could do much better as an organization to promote a good compromise.
Peter Smith.
-
- Posts: 7502
- Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 8:22 pm
- Location: Maffra, Vic
Re: Zeroing for ETs
When the people who make the decisions are either not regular shooters or don't happen to be affected by an issue, then change is less likely to happen unfortunately. For example with blow-off shots, its interesting to see how people's views change according to how their current barrels behave when clean...
-
- Posts: 896
- Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 7:11 pm
- Location: Townsville
Re: Zeroing for ETs
Comps are generally organised by the local club.
Locals have home range advantage to the extent they probably all shot on the first competitive range in the previous week. Sights set, no worries.
People traveling have a distinct disadvantage, particularly flying. Removing scopes and stocks, getting gear knocked about. Getting ammo knocked about.
If checking zero on the first range of a comp is available to all, there is no advantage to anyone.
Is it cynical to think the organisers don't want to give away home range advantage?
Locals have home range advantage to the extent they probably all shot on the first competitive range in the previous week. Sights set, no worries.
People traveling have a distinct disadvantage, particularly flying. Removing scopes and stocks, getting gear knocked about. Getting ammo knocked about.
If checking zero on the first range of a comp is available to all, there is no advantage to anyone.
Is it cynical to think the organisers don't want to give away home range advantage?
Return to “Equipment & Technical”
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 127 guests