RIFLES

[John E]

Grumpy,
the armourer,who put Ben's rifle together, shoots FStd down here with the same type of rig, and while he is a very competent FS and BR shooter down here, and he is a nice bloke into the bargain, he would be the first to tell you that, unlike Ben, he doesn't win every FS competition that he competes in. The Omarks, Angels, Musgraves, etc hold their own against his rifle ---- maybe it's just that we have better Omarks down here than you have up there, or just perhaps it's has something to do with shooter ability, something that you find convenient to ignore.
I believe that grading is the key to encouraging people to compete in F Class, and if you look at the NRAA website Results page you will see what I mean --- in FS at NQRA Queens, the gap between the top shooters and the bottom shooters in the leadup, the Queens and the Grand Agg, says it all.
John

[a.JR]

fs

[John E]

G'day Jeff, good to hear from you again.
I think that most of the time you hear the words "unfair advantage" being used is when someone hasn't been able to win, or hasn't been good enough to even get close to winning. We both know that a poor shot won't do any good in open competition, even with the best rifle.
With your hypothetical situation, it sounds like to "game on" to me, if the wind is chopping and changing, assuming the the two shooters are using the same calibre, but what happens if the wind stops blowing? We could imagine that you might have an unfair advantage because you shoot better. Where does it stop?
I'm sure that you keep your rifles in tip top condition, and you recognise when one is going off the boil, and you'll do something to fix it straight away, but you know that's only the start, you still have to know how to use it, how to read the wind, as you point out, and we all need a bit of luck now and again, as well. In FS the generous target also tends to negate the superioty of one rifle over another --- the highest value ring is approx. one minute of angle across, and you get the same value whether you hit it right in the middle or around the edge.
I get a bit tired of the people who say " he beat me. His rifle looks different to mine, so it's not fair". All that gear was being used before the new Rules were framed ( I'd like a dollar for every time that I have said this ) so that no-one had to go to the trouble of changing their set-up, and I reckon that's fair. If Jeff Rodgers wants to drop a 223 or 308 barrel in his BR rifle and come and play FSTD, then he can, as long as it makes the weights, and no-one should say "that's not fair."
The point I was trying to make with the example of the Omark, is that you don't have to spend a fortune to have a competitive rifle, but you do need to have some skill and ability to help the rifle do it's job. Am I wrong here?
Anyway, what have you been doing? I've seen your posts on the Yankee websites now and again, but that's all. Have you had a shot at FSTD yet?

Regards
John

[RAVEN]

Hi John & Jeff
Down here in crow eater land
Every Sat. FS & FO shoot at our club together
On more than one occasion I have been whooped by the FS boys on the Open Target
These guys are using Omarks with the old black mountain barrels and shooting 99s and 98s and also on a few occasions lately out of say 8 rounds of 10 to count there was what would have equated to 7 possibles.
I have been beaten by more Omarks than custom actioned rifles.
If Grumpy has a problem with being competitive he should look to improve his rifle set up or technique because plenty of the old FB rifle sure can shoot.
I think it is also human nature to blame your equipment rather than just admitting you got it wrong
Cheers
RB

[Simon C]

Well said Richard.

U dont need a tack driver to be competitive....wind reading is the key and especially in shifty conditions like those encountered at Lower Light and at Monarto.

I really think that some people are out to frustrate things when they issue protests about other's equipment. Sign of sour grapes if u ask me.

Good shooters will try to learn from other good shooters and focus on THEIR setup rather than everyone else's.....then ask the question: What did I do wrong to LOSE the competition. Self reflection is a powerful learning tool and is usually the mark of a good sportsman.

Nobody likes a sore loser. Plus it doesnt make for an enjoyable experience. We dont participate for PITA experiences, we do it 'cause we love it.

See u all at the SA Queens & please, no retarded protests!

[Lynn Otto]

From "For sale/wanted to buy" forum

Shooting with a 1/4 seemes to me to give an advantage. ( And costs big bucks.)

Grumpy

Hopefully I have not misunderstood what you have written, you seem to think that to have a rifle that shoots 1/4 moa requires a lot of money, I would beg to differ in that my rifle (an old Omark in .223) will do this and did not cost me very much at all. It can and does shoot possibles on the F Class target. Yes having a rifle able to do this is an advantage but only to the extent that the person using it is capable of making the most of the rifles ability, unfortunately I don't often do my rifle justice.

[RAVEN]

Yep thats one of those Omarks that has kicked my butt before

[Malcolm Hill]

Grumpy Have been reading with interest the feedback on your scopes for sale and the way the discussion has run a little off track.I can't see any changes to the rules that have made it more expensive to be competitive. I don't see a lot of difference in a rifle that is capable of 1/4 minute or 3/4 minute groups when it comes to the fullbore target-if it's calm they'll both shoot 60's easily and if it's windy and tricky shooter ability or lack thereof has far more influence on scores than the difference in grouping ability. It is not until the FO target is used that the tighter grouping rifle can have the advantage by way of being capable of actually keeping the shots inside the ten ring, but can only do it on a perfectly calm day without a skilled operator. I also have an Omark in 223 that cost me less than $900 including new barrel(4000 rds old now),bolthead,scope and mounts that will quite happily keep any other rifle on the mound honest. You don't have to spend a fortune to be competetive,just know how to set it up well and hopefully be able to read the weather. Regards Malcolm.

[Simon C]

Spot on Malcolm

To quote Raven:

Thats one of "those" rifles that has kicked my butt before.

[John E]

Grumpy,
I think your post has been well and truly answered. I gave the Omark as an example because it is an inexpensive action to acquire these days --- a new shooter can pick one up for around $300 - $350, and you can fit a stainless barrel for around $700, so if you were starting from scratch, the rifle will cost about $1000, or less if you fit a MAB/Omark barrel. The main thing is to make sure that you keep your gear up to scratch, bedding, barrel, scope, etc. and the rest is up to the operator.
Everyone would prefer to have a rifle that shoots 1/4 MOA than 3/4MOA, but again that's up to each of us to see that they maintain that accuracy. We have to be mindful also that barrels don't last forever --- they can be freshened up with a new crown and a re-chamber, or simply replace them when necessary. The point is that once you have the rifle shooting well, it is not overly expensive to keep it there. Budget for a new barrel every say, 3 - 5 years, for example, and it's relatively inexpensive.
As everyone else has said, you don't have to spend megabucks to keep up with the opposition.
John

[a.JR]

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[John E]

Congratulations on your shooting, Jeff ---- it sounds like you're really burning. How about posting a photo of your rifle and tell us a bit about it, barrel, calibre, scope, etc.
I think most people have got used to the FSTD rules now, and they've found that they are very liberal and easy to comply with, not much different to what we were doing before there was a formal set of rules, and everyone seems to be enjoying it. I know I find it a very relaxed form of competition.
I did notice that it was difficult to get the information out to some areas of NSW and QLD for a long time, but that seems to have resolved itself now.
The few protests or objections that are raised now and again probably result from the objectors not realising just how liberal the rules are, and what a wide variety of gear can be used. Maybe you should give it another go.

John

[Grumpy]

I would sincerely like to thank all of the particapants in this debate.You have expressed yourselves in a straght ford and honest manner. I would have expected no less. Thankyou all once again. Now without doubt all of the f/std shooters will finally know the how and why and where our new rules came from. Sincerely. Grant Moore. Q04640.

[Lynn Otto]

Now without doubt all of the f/std shooters will finally know the how and why and where our new rules came from.

Grant, this line is a little cryptic, all we have discussed is that you can comply with the rules using a relatively inexpensive yet accurate rifle. I can't see how that shows how or why the rules came about. Please explain.

Of course anyone who was interested enough in their sport to participate in the process knows how and why our new rules came about.

[a.JR]

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