INCH ACTIONS IN AUST & US

[pfc15]

I concur Tom!

The reality is Woody, you have priced your actions to be competative in the US - where volumes do speak numbers. Should this be done at the expense of the Australian shooter....the members can make their own decision.

Logic dictates - volume or not, that such a divergance in cost between the Aust price and the US market price - would not be done at a loss - yes admin costs for large volumes reduce, but I would argue your manufacturing costs remain resonably constant - otherwise you would not be making the product - especially for a loss in the US market. Do admin costs equal the difference in price - noting distribution costs etc....again for the members to decide.

Me I have made my mind up - feels like the ashes series!

[Robert Chombart]

I concur Tom!

The reality is Woody, you have priced your actions to be competative in the US - where volumes do speak numbers. Should this be done at the expense of the Australian shooter....the members can make their own decision.

Logic dictates - volume or not, that such a divergance in cost between the Aust price and the US market price - would not be done at a loss - yes admin costs for large volumes reduce, but I would argue your manufacturing costs remain resonably constant - otherwise you would not be making the product - especially for a loss in the US market. Do admin costs equal the difference in price - noting distribution costs etc....again for the members to decide.

Me I have made my mind up - feels like the ashes series!

Gentlmen,

Does anyone here have realised the fact that the US importer is master of his price policy and this price range is for both probably an intoductory one????

Moreover, the difference you mention is for a part in the trigger, which in USA is the custom and that he manufactures...and sells retail price?...

Recently, the Inch action price (being the Aus selling price without your GST) was passed on a UK Forum, and the general comment was an appreciation of the moderate offered price...cheap for UK standrds.

6 French shooters are currently buying an Inch at the listed price...and they do not find it over-priced compared to the" low cost ones"..

A comparable quality action although of previous generation as the INCH was listed by the AUS importer much more than what is asked now for the INCH.

The same action is still listed here and there (where it is still available) at 2500 + Euros with a trigger... This is with VAT added....

Quality in all its aspects has always a cost...Reliability as well....

Woody can tell you how it simply cost them to have a receiver coated with the most modern wear and rust resistant process... moreover much more attractive to the eyes than the industrial bllueing as well.. This peocess can be only made in Melbourne with the related costs added, when here it can be made at 1 hour's drive!!)......

And this is only one point of technical comaprison...Wich action for instance gives you a spare friring pin tip integrated in the design??? When you buy a car, a REAL spare wheel cost you more than a plastic disc often seen now, no?.

Woody Rod is impassionated by wat he does.. and does well IMHO... This is so rare our days with the 'merchants of the temple' concept prevailing so much in our sport.. I think he must be forgiven for that and encouraged for what they (w'ith his partners) are trying to achieve.

If technical questions are raised, I will gladly reply if of my limited knowledgee (by far not those of P-P Mauser or J-M Browning). For the rest, I prefer to break...

R.G.C

[TOM]

I believe the Davies action is designed to replace the striker end of the firing pin.
TOM

[M12LRPV]

Woody,

Your attitude toward Australian shooters is your biggest drawback.
TOM

Which he knows about but doesn't care.

I have had a number of people come to me asking what I think about the actions. I tell them that I think they're excellent actions that will no doubt form the basis of excellent rifles but somehow after I describe the behavior of the person making them they are no longer interested.

[Lynn Otto]

Be patient, make the product speak for itself in a marketing sense, make people trust and want the product, don't belittle and malign the very consumers I assume you want to sell to.

I find it annoying to be given lessons from someone that does not know our product, services or anything about us. Only the negative things said about us on this and other forums. We operate in a vastly larger area of operation than you probably realise.

You may want to consider that: a) I was being supportive from a business perspective and have not said anything negative about your product...for the very reason you state I DO NOT know your product. b) I do know about business/marketing and consumer psychology. You should try accepting good will with good grace, you are doing your cause an ill service as some others have pointed out.

[Robert Chombart]

I believe the Davies action is designed to replace the striker end of the firing pin.
TOM

But where is the evnetual spare one? Certainly not integrated in the design and permanently in plce in the bolt, replaceable in seconds...

R.G.C

[bruce moulds]

rod,
i wasn't having a go.
just taking a neutral standpoint.
i am no engineering and design expert, but i do know what i want in an action. since you question my knowledge here it is.
in order of priority i look for these things.
safety, reliability, longevity, and lastly features which promote accuracy, which also includes user friendliness.
we all know why we have to do a trigger test prior to shooting. i could be wrong, but i believe it is due to a firing pin design which allowed a situation where a premature discharge occurred.
i have heard that an action using washers for a firing pin spring has problems maintaining constant trigger adjustment.
the longer the boltlift, the more powerful extraction becomes, assuming a well designed extraction cam. this means a 2 lug bolt. the same camming power might be what can get a queens winning shot into a chamber, as opposed to disabling a rifle.
i want maximum case life from my brass, and rear locking actions that i have used, although accurate, were not as good as front lockers.
i believe that a lot of good design features have been lost from bolt actions in order to make manufacturing easier.
as people have stated, history will decide whether or not yours will succeed.
i hope it does, and admire you for sticking your neck out
should you ever come to sa, or i to wa, i would look forward to meeting you, both in conversation and in competition.
you have here a golden marketing opportunity to sell the product you make.
all the best,
bruce moulds.

[Robert Chombart]

rod,
i wasn't having a go.
just taking a neutral standpoint.
i am no engineering and design expert, but i do know what i want in an action. since you question my knowledge here it is.
in order of priority i look for these things.
safety, reliability, longevity, and lastly features which promote accuracy, which also includes user friendliness.
we all know why we have to do a trigger test prior to shooting. i could be wrong, but i believe it is due to a firing pin design which allowed a situation where a premature discharge occurred.
i have heard that an action using washers for a firing pin spring has problems maintaining constant trigger adjustment.
the longer the boltlift, the more powerful extraction becomes, assuming a well designed extraction cam. this means a 2 lug bolt. the same camming power might be what can get a queens winning shot into a chamber, as opposed to disabling a rifle.
i want maximum case life from my brass, and rear locking actions that i have used, although accurate, were not as good as front lockers.
i believe that a lot of good design features have been lost from bolt actions in order to make manufacturing easier.
as people have stated, history will decide whether or not yours will succeed.
i hope it does, and admire you for sticking your neck out
should you ever come to sa, or i to wa, i would look forward to meeting you, both in conversation and in competition.
you have here a golden marketing opportunity to sell the product you make.
all the best,
bruce moulds.

Bruce,
At least some technical points I can reply, using my modest knowledge :

1°) Safety ; A True 2-stage trigger is much safer than a single stage, as its cocks at a maximum of engagement. The single-stage can be (mis)-adjusted up to the point there is not enough engagement to satisfy a safety check….

2°) Reliability; This as a lot to do with materials and treatments used. Metal used in the first RPA, Millenium and INCH is 3 times the cost of the steel used by others. Same for this point: it is available at the next door here, but need to be ordered in quantity abroad whne in Australia. It is an aircraft quality abslolutely warp free and hardening at a level much higher than the commonly used 4140 or similar. This is one only of the details I could develop…

3°)Longevity: Choice of materials and processes as noted above are the determinant factor here.. All the important parts of the Inch are treated to 52 HRC as compared to the 38 HRC of so many others…and what to say about the nitride coating wear and corrosion resistant, also friction-free rated at 85 to 95 HRC, depending of the color choosen??.

4°) Accuracy ; the firing system allowing 1,3 to 1,4 milliseconds of locktime is unequalled. This exist since the RPA of 1994, just improved after 2 more generations. The three designs have already quite a record and I can include the Inch in that despite its short career….

5°) User friendliness: a reduction of 25% of bot pull travel is not user friendly when shooting either F-Class or mostly from the sling??. No interference with a cheekpieec who can correspondingly be extended forward…. Number of lugs has nothing to do with that…..Hearsays again.

6°) Firing pin design cause of the safety checks: YES, but it is bot the FP, but the coking piece instead, and the Single Stage function and the sloped cocking piece who caused premature discharges…Not the case for a good 2-stage trigger and a 90° square cocking piece. A good saf trigger also has a cost….

7°)Quote: “ I have heard that an action using washers for a firing pin spring has problems maintaining constant trigger adjustment’.

I prefer to use your own words here ‘You have heard’’. I do not think I have technically to comment hearsays!!.

8°) Primary extraction; A GOOD primary extraction is when it allows 2mm of Bolt pull at end of the opening cycle. I will not enter in geometry and cinematics here, but this is achieved under a very small segment of the bolt totation, and the more the ramp is away from the axis, the shorter the camming angle can be…..

9°) Queens prize winner: I do not understand clearly here…The Bisley Queens at least had been won by both the RPA and the Millenium (I 2008). Same year,in the same Queens prize an Inch prototype ended 1 point behind the winner, with the best score at 1000 yards of all the range!!!.... and well in the Grand asw ell….

10°) Case life; you are still thinking in terms of spongy SMLE actions. I can prove this is anon-sense in a purpose designed single shot action…. The inch was shot .338 LM with no observations to be made on this aspect…hearsay again.;;and misknowledge of metallurgy…

At least, despite my challenged competence, this one is at least sufficient to be able to determine important sections and stresses and general resistance of a part like a single shot receiver and bolt.

R.G.C

[Chopper]

I watch with great interest, would the bolt handle clear any scope ??Chop.

[Robert Chombart]

I watch with great interest, would the bolt handle clear any scope ??Chop.

Chopper,

This is one of the great advantages of the multu-lugs design. On the Inch, the Bolt rotation is 60° as compared to the 90° of the 2 lugs.

On closed position, the handle is 20° under horizontal for the maximum reach, and opened, it is40° over horizonal, allowing large clearance for a scope.
R.G.C

[bruce moulds]

robert & rod,
i would like to continue this debate, as this is a very interesting subject, but i suspect that we are coming from such differing viewpoints regarding design goals that we will never agree.
however, such a debate in the public domain could lead to misunderstandings by other readers which would not help rod's cause, and i would not want to be responsible for that.
the only reason i went as far as i did was to demonstrate that i do know what i want in an action and why.
i would be happy to continue discussion by pm.
what i do know is that if one is trying to sell something, the best technique is to convince potential buyers that they need the product, as opposed to accusing them of things.
all the best, bruce moulds.

[Cameron Mc]

Let the product do the talking. If its good it will sell, word of mouth will take care of that. From what I have seen over the last year or so on many forums, various arguments have started around this Inch action.

I have several custom actions. Bruce A Thom is flat strap making actions. I have a couple of his and they are the best I have owned. Nev Madden's action and trigger is also very well built and it's all ozzie made and designed...but he concentrates on barrels. These blokes keep a low profile and their products sell.

As for scope clearance, my BAT's are 2 lug and good design has allowed low scope mounting if that is what you want.

Woody, I hope your actions go well. More competition breeds better products.

My thoughts
Cameron

[bobeager]

"Woody" pls see PM

[bobped]

Best Price I can find for a Barnard Action in Australia is $1700 AU. Not sure if this includes trigger. I can't find a price for a new RPA Quadlock or Quadlite, but the last time I saw a price I remember the Quadlock was well over $2000 AU without trigger. (Jim, remember I'm an old man, so the memory may be going)

I think we ought to get real. I have a friend down here in Tassie who imports all sorts of shooting related gear to sell. Gloves, slings, brass, powder etc. etc. He gets very downhearted when someone asks for a price and then berates him, saying they can get it cheaper somewhere else on the mainland or overseas, (not without a good deal more trouble I might add).

His comment to me is that they ignore the fact that he's trying to make a living and he can't do that if he sells stuff at cost or below, just because the potential buyer is a friend.

Robert C. if you are listening, looking, etc., I have a Millennium Action I shoot in .308. Best thing I ever bought. In Target Rifle Competition, it has won a number of Queens, Lead-up competitions and Grand Championships. In F Class it has done the same. Maybe I've been lucky, but the absolute reliabilty of the Millennium Action has played a big part, so thank you.

I've had a good look at the INCH action. I think Woody had a couple of small problems with quality control at the start, but others assure me this has all been ironed out. The action incorporates all the good design features the Millennium has.

I'm looking forward to seeing them in action on our ranges over the next couple of years. If I was looking at buying another Rifle Action, it would be one of the "major actions" mentioned above, and the INCH, at this price, would be one of the ones I'd consider.
(Bruce, if you offered a Stolle at $500 I would consider it)

Good luck with it.

Bob Pedersen

[Grant G]

Thinking a Stolle is worth only $500 , Bob you fit the the Inch mentality perfectly.