FCWC 2017 in Canada - Nominations

[jasmay]

I agree with DaveMc's comments

To Start looking at team members prior to having a captain and manager in place is probably a bit premature. The captain having a role in developing the selection stratergies and been comfortable with them is critical in my opinion.

However I think early selection of a captain and manager is paramount, really, as soon as the current team is officially closed if it coudl be done within this year allowing 3years of prep for the next captain.

Selection of team members 18-24months out also, this will allow time to purchase and develop equipment.


Burn out is a big thing, I am only just getting my arse into gear for a few OPM's now, I think you woudl be hard pressed to carry much experience forward if selections or noms were carried out to soon.

I have chatted with Catherine from the NRAA myself, and expressed my beliefs on the time periods, we'll see how it pans out, I am hoping their ears are open to bringing the time frames forward a little.

There is a lot of knowledge to be taken from the current teams captains and coaches, the more time the new captain has to do this, the more benefit will be garnered.

Until then, I think the best course of action shooteres wishing to participate can take is to promote, push and particiapte Fclass, particularly FTR as they can.

[aaronraad]

perhaps Viagra could be approached for sponsorship.
if the team were to be successful again, it would add a certain thing to their reputation.
keep safe,
bruce.

Probably get pinged on having extra wind reading devices on the mound.

[BATattack]

Hi Tony,
Yes this enthusiasm is something to be admired - keep it up.

I have a few things to suggest;

Firstly, The NRAA must name a Captain (and probably manager etc) and work with them to develop a team trial and selection process. One of the recommendations coming back from Raton was that this be done as early as possible. It was a rush last time but not due to the NRAA - we have struggled (and failed) in the past to put a team together and it was only through Rod and Lindas drive and persistence that we got there for this one. First step is we need more people like them - I would highly recommend you put your hand up for one of these positions Tony. You have a lot of the right skills, enthusiasm and temperament for the job.

Secondly, A lot of us came back from Raton a bit burnt out. We worked very hard and reached the pinnacle of the sport but I doubt too many would like to line up again right now for 3.5 years of training and tryouts and I would also politely suggest it would be a good thing to try and carry some of last years experience forward.

Thirdly, Tryouts 3 years out mean very little as to who will be performing on the day (and also who will still have the enthusiasm) so I think what we really need is a development program rather than 3 years of trials. This development program should include (but not be limited to) raising a whole new generation of coaches. Encouraging F class team shooting around the states and districts, Working on "team players" (I would highly recommend Nancy Tompkins book as a great start but also talking to and gain some knowledge from the great TR team captains, shooters and experience out there).And finally gear development with some recommendations on how to progress towards peak performance at the time (not now).

Dave

Totally agree with these statements.

Select leadership, develop systems, determine equipment, set goals, obtain personnel would be my process.

Do you think it would be worthwhile selecting a cartridge/ bullet that people can start loading and shooting with to obtain components and develop familiarity with the cartridge?

Do you see the team sticking with 284 or 7saum or stepping up to a 30mag?

[DaveMc]

Do you think it would be worthwhile selecting a cartridge/ bullet that people can start loading and shooting with to obtain components and develop familiarity with the cartridge?

Do you see the team sticking with 284 or 7saum or stepping up to a 30mag?

As discussed with Linda and Rod - This will definitely be a Captains call but one of the things I think needs to get put out there early. I see lots of top level shooters spending money on equipment that may or may not be usable depending on the Captains direction (and Connaughts range limitations). We left it open to 30 cal this time but on the day ditched them for one reason. You can swap rifles but not calibres so if a 30 cal was not performing you could not just pick up someones 7mm (and this is not cartridge limited - just calbre so a 7RSAUM can be swapped for a 284 etc). We actually swapped rifles several times in the teams event and had a lot of freedom to move to match people with rifles they shot best. At this stage I would think 7mm is a sure bet (but has to be <3000 fps for 180 grain projeciles) but wll be Captains call and probably (logically and like the other teams) might depend on developments over the next few years and how many can be presented in good working form (for backup).

It makes sense for the "development program" to include trialling new calibres and bullets and not limit anything until we know what is working best in the connaught conditions. We went over with a team of rifles that were working very well and set very few limitations beforehand. It was a wise approach.

[bartman007]

I think one of the key roles to be developed over the next few years is Coaching Style.

We are fortunate to have a number of coaches at State Level now and really need to bring them in line with what has been successfully used at Raton. You may also gleen some additional techniques from existing coaches.

Once we have the coaching style defined, then we need to have these coaches practice with the shooters. That way the shooter understands the commands and process that he/she will be shooting under. Developing a consistent approach will give us the flexibility to swap coaches in and out as the need arises.

I for one could improve by leaning from the masterful coaches of 2013! It is not just about reading wind! It is about working with the shooter and other team members (master coach), to get the best score at that time.

By starting sooner than later, we can develop the skills at Club Pennant / DRA Teams / State Teams levels which will only standardise on the coaching processes across F Class in Australia. And with any luck, raise the level of F Class Team shooting in Australia.

If we can get 2 or 3 coaches per state/territory, then we could minimise on the travel requirements over the next 3 years. With the coaches getting together periodically to refine/standardise on technique.

These are exciting times!

[DaveMc]

Mike I agree 100%. This would be ideal if it could be pulled off.

There are however as many coaching styles as there are coaches and some of these coaches have a great wealth of experience and practice in their own style and would not necessarily cope with a new style easily. Getting a nation to agree on the best way forward would be no small feat.

At the core of any good 3 coach shooting system must be communication - "How does everyone know exactly what wind you have put on". Shooter (if communicating verbally and not manual winding), other target coach and master coach (as well as Captain etc). I personally think many techniques are brilliant for single coach teams but very few work seamlessly in 3 coach "systems". From experience though it is not easy to convince everyone to adopt one style and most of us believe ours is best........

[aaronraad]

...most of us believe ours is best........

Belief, confidence, positive thinking, whatever you like to call it has been proven as key to our sport. Even more so, when you end up a long way from home. Shooters and coaches are still individuals and you have to respect that their experiences within our sport are not always the same as yours. Convincing everyone to adopt one style is nothing short of a miracle work. Identifying the key elements and making a plan to achieve them is much easier.

[bsouthernau]

Convincing everyone to adopt one style is nothing short of a miracle work. Identifying the key elements and making a plan to achieve them is much easier.

Whatever the style communication between the targets is crucial. It is unforgiveable to have two targets go down at the same time and both come up with magpies - yet I've seen it plenty of times.

Barry

[bartman007]

Convincing everyone to adopt one style is nothing short of a miracle work. Identifying the key elements and making a plan to achieve them is much easier.

Good point Aaronraad. With the goal of standardising on Coach - Shooter communication, and also Coach - Coach - Master Coach communication.

Whatever the style communication between the targets is crucial. It is unforgiveable to have two targets go down at the same time and both come up with magpies - yet I've seen it plenty of times.

Barry, when we have the benefit of 2 targets running in parallel, then I agree totally. At any time a coach is uncertain on the wind, 1 should take the shot, then both can see the result and prevent the next shooter from being subject to the same poor call. Time is of the essence, so when waiting out a BIG CHANGE, only 1 shooter should take the 'sighter'. If you have time, simply switch out the shooter for the next one, and use 1 of their sighters.

It doesn't matter how good the wind coach is, we have seen it at Bendigo practises, and you see it at any shoot. At times a number of shooters will all get a Maggie or other score outside the Center, and we look up at the flags/mirage/grass/dust/rain/etc and can't fathom where that shot came from. Fire another shot and it is back in the Center! It does happen, but rarely. If it happens too often, then the coach needs to have a rest. The Captain should be monitoring the performance of his team, and rotate out people that aren't performing, where possible.

Remember, going away and eating different food, socialising at the pub too much, being knocked about by the heat (including sun burn), dust, pollen or cold, all affect people differently. The Captain and Team Doctor can monitor this aspect of the team, and deal with it appropriately.

[bruce moulds]

harry pope the famous scheutzen shooter and the best barrl maker the world has ever known said this.
it is not a bout making 100% good shots, but making the least amount of bad ones.
this pertains to team and any competitive shooting.
finding ways to not make bad shots is what it is all about.
conversely the way to do this is not to dwell on bad shots, but work out how to make good shots the habit.
keep safe,
bruce.

[DaveMc]

Hi Barry, I hope you don't mind but I would like to use this comment as an example - purely as something for up and coming team shooters and coaches to consider in the context of this "development squad". The particular point I would like to make is "forgiveness" for team players but also to challenge the actual concept you have put forward as well -"Maybe it is ok?".

Whilst I understand Barry's sentiment and have heard this many times it is important for team players to understand this: ALWAYS fight the urge to blame the coach or shooters for ANY error! Nothing is "unforgivable" and we all make mistakes (and I don't think barry meant it like that either). The aim of team shooting is to combine everyones strengths to obtain the best possible score. There will be errors and mistakes but by building a harmonious team that fully support each other you will achieve better outcomes (and certainly much more enjoyable ones).

Now - On this particular topic I also totally disagree. After trying to plug away in the individuals and making wind calls on every shot it soon became apparent that Raton was not that sort of range. Raton would give you a couple of minutes of reasonably steady conditions punctuated by wild fishtails and almost unreadable changes (e.g. Dust devils swirling down course). It would have been a hellhole for Bisley style shooting. It was particularly bad at the 900 and 1000 yards of day 1 team shooting.

So which is worse?? - 1) Two coaches stopping and waiting out the "crazies" and then coordinating a start to get going and pelting in as many as you can in the "usable condition" - During this time you may well wait for the other coaches shot to come up if it is in the pit but it could be costly to wait too long. Waiting out the pit service is losing points too if the condition is there to be had. Of course during this time you are bombarded with input of other coaches call and targets popping up and down but the Master coach helps watch out for the changes. Occasionally in this setting you will get both coaches caught but in the meantime they have made many points gain by getting them on the board. If you sit there and plug away steadily, waiting for other target to come up then you are exposed for twice as long and more likely to lose points too. So is a few points lost together quickly but many good ones on the board better or worse than losing same number of points over a longer period of time??? Of course the answer isn't always the same and is range dependant.

The coaches are chosen to make thoses decisions so let them do it and forgive them for their errors. Pat everyone on the back when they do a good job and go easy on them when they get it wrong. There is no one way to tackle any range.

Wind coaching is an "unforgiving job". Plenty of people out there criticising and few want to take the risk - it is daunting. First step to encouraging more coaches to have a go is to encourage a more forgiving environment.

[AlanF]

Interesting perspective Dave. We need to add "flexible" to the requisites of a top a coach. Now if that is the case, would you then concede that there are some situations where the coach is best to say to the shooter "go for it until I say otherwise". For example a good shooter, fast marking, and conditions typically steady for a minute or so.

Alan

[DaveMc]

I will never say never Alan and we did discuss this. The big disadvantage of course is there is no learning to be done for the coach to help the next shooter. So from a team perspective it is hard to imagine a situation where this could benefit the team as a whole. Perhaps the last shooter on the line on rare occasions?? But as I said before there is more than one way to tackle each range and I am sure you could occasionally get a better single range score this way. When and how it could be used effectively as a team concept is the question??

[bartman007]

First step to encouraging more coaches to have a go is to encourage a more forgiving environment.

Too true Dave. One thing does help, to have a thick skin and don't take it too personally. We all have good and not so good days.

So long as all team members are doing the best they can in the conditions presented, you can't ask for any more than that. We are human, and we are fighting against natures elements.

I've had times when the conditions have been difficult, and the most important thing you can do is, YOUR BEST and don't throw shots away. What I always like to say to the shooter is that it is a team effort. You give me your best shot, and I'll do my best to keep it in the middle of the target.

If as a shooter you feel that you have gotten a poor score, then go and look at the other team shooter scores for the SAME TIME as when you shot. Most likely they will have lost as many points if not more than you. We can't / don't shoot 60's at every range every time we go out, so what does that say about our individual wind reading skills [no one is perfect].

So when a shooter throws a wild shot high or low, is it OK for the coach to give the shooter a hard time.....Hell No! You confirm with the shooter if they thought it was OK, then move on. Remember, the wind doesn't stop while we are trying to work out who to blame. We should not play the blame game, it is a negative place to go.

From what I see as a coach, there is still a lot of work to bring our shooters up to their best potential. Rifle / Rest / Scope adjustment / Load Tuning / Release technique just to mention a few items.

The 'trigger pullers' have just as much work to do as the coach and captain. Admittedly 75% of their work is done weeks in advance. But adapting to the Heat / Visibility / Rain conditions on the day will have an effect on the outcome too.

[AlanF]

I will never say never Alan and we did discuss this. The big disadvantage of course is there is no learning to be done for the coach to help the next shooter. So from a team perspective it is hard to imagine a situation where this could benefit the team as a whole. Perhaps the last shooter on the line on rare occasions?? But as I said before there is more than one way to tackle each range and I am sure you could occasionally get a better single range score this way. When and how it could be used effectively as a team concept is the question??

Yes, thinking about it more, probably a good strategy in the above situation would be for the coach to stay in control of every shot, but go into a fast mode e.g. say "get ready" while the target is down then the instant the target appears say "same again".