an interesting thought

[bruce moulds]

that probably would never happen.
recent experiments with the 6.5 super lr, has caused comparison with the 6.5 creedmoor cartridge.
although the creedmoor is shorter in the body, it is fatter in the shoulder, and has virtually the same case capacity, and therefore loading potential.
I looked at the super lr as a low recoiling round that could use the 140 gn 6.5 bullets, making it suitable for even match rifle ranges, while having good barrel life.
it is proving to be very forgiving with loads, and fun to shoot.
of course the creedmoor is exactly the same in this respect, and you don't have to form brass.
both cases have an excellent load density of 2209 with heavy bullets, and 2208 with lighter ones.
the 123 gn 6.5 bullets compare favourably with the 155 gn 308 bullets used in tr.
would the 6.5 creedmoor be a better alternative for tr and fclass std than the 308. quite possibly so.
less recoil would suit new shooters, and tr needs that. it would also do away with the need for the 223 which is less than ideal in many ways.
economics are better with less powder (around 42 gn) and less wt of raw materials in projectiles and cases.
more brands of cases are coming on line.
if tr the world over adopted this cartridge, prices would probably go down.
we only have the 308 n0w because it was a nato cartridge and we were connected to the military. now that the umbilical has been cut this ceases to be of relevance.
just a thought.
keep safe,
bruce.

[johnk]

Bruce,

The 6BR is an acceptable substitute at TR distances & significantly less expensive to feed. When I had my neck fused & decided to run a lighter recoiling rifle than my FS .308, I was reassured when reviewing ballistic tables to realise that it was ballistically the twin or near twin of the 155 .308. Sure, it can suffer at the longs when the road is bumpy, but it has to be the most forgiving calibre that I've ever loaded.

To my mind, TR & FS are about making a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Hunting horsepower is an FO characteristic & rightly so. That's what annoys me about how F/TR was set up, essentially FO on road tyres.

John

[tom1]

Now this is exactly what this forum should be about. This is a subject that needs to be discussed. Many of us know that newcomers struggle with the recoil of the .308. My father uses the .223 for several reasons and shoots very well, but is the first to admit it suffers past 800 yds when things get rough. As a TR shooter I know nothing about these calibers you guys talk about, but I would be very interested in the thoughts of other shooters who do.

[DenisA]

So basically, were talking about using a 300m ISSF?? rifle in ICFRA TR.

T/R Open!!!

http://www.6mmbr.com/300m.html

[bruce moulds]

denis,
the 6.5 creedmoor was designed to use from 200 to 1000 yd.
it is the smallest case designed for 1000 yd shooting, and can have a 140 bullet supersonic at 1200 yd.
the name creedmoor suggests 800, 900, & 1000 yd, as those are the ranges shot at creedmoor, and now palma.
the hornady r&d team got it right with this cartridge.
just rebarrel the current tr rifle.
keep safe,
bruce.

[DenisA]

It would be REALLY interesting to see the score difference in T/R with some of these awesome cartridges and bullets.

[DaveMc]

Whilst I have no doubt this would be very interesting I doubt you would see much difference in the scores achieved. Possibly a few points at the long ranges and/or in bad conditions. There are several reasons.

1) The 308 has proven more than capable of holding fantastic accuracy (check the Lapua website and video http://www.lapua.com/en/lapua/lapua-video.html - John Lewis 10mm 600yard group plus everyday a good 308 gives the open shooters a run for their money.
2) With the relative size of the bullseye (5 ring) generally being 2 minutes any possible difference in accuracy is miniscule.
3) The 155 grain Barger Hybrid is not that far behind ballistically and the target is large enough to accomodate the difference.

We regularly see possibles from the top TR shooters - it is hard to beat that.

The recoil is possibly the only significant advantage. Relative cost of running a 308 is hard to beat - Better barrel lif makes up for a lot of difference in powder and projectiles.

[IanP]

denis,
it is the smallest case designed for 1000 yd shooting, and can have a 140 bullet supersonic at 1200 yd.
bruce.

Hey Bruce it might interest you to know that the humble 6.5x47L can also keep the Berger 140gr Vld/Hybrid supersonic out to 1200 yds!

Using standard atmo conditions and using 140gr Vld's, (G7 = 0.313) launched at a modest 2865 fps it retains 1338 fps at 1200 yards.

It gets better of course if you point your bullets and the 140gr Vld's pointed, (G7 = 0.33) retain a velocity of 1403 fps at 1200 yards.

I have a chamber with a long throat to suit the 140gr bullets so as to give a little more BC for across the course shooting. If your only shooting out to midrange the 130gr Bergers seem to be popular but they are no more accurate than the 140s in the testing I have done.

I load Michael's, (son) FO rifle with 2208 powder and its match load is with the 140gr Vld's launched at 2865 fps. It shoots this load hot or cold with zero pressure signs and is a reloader's dream with the excellent Lapua brass. Michael shoots this rifle at all ranges as he likes its low recoil and excellent accuracy.

The Creedmoor with Hornady brass does not really offer that much more over the 6.5x47L. I would opt for the Lapua brass case over the Hornady Creedmoor but that's my personal preference and its different strokes for different blokes!

Ian

[jasmay]

1) The 308 has proven more than capable of holding fantastic accuracy (check the Lapua website and video http://www.lapua.com/en/lapua/lapua-video.html - John Lewis 10mm 600yard group plus everyday a good 308 gives the open shooters a run for their money.

This was proven recently at the tassie teams match, the QLD FStandard team managed a 299/27, only one shooter dropping a point. The nearest F Open was 296/27.

I think a lot of people are quick to rubbish the .308 accuracy wise, I would love to run all the numbers through AB's software, and see exactly where the differences lay.

[bruce moulds]

no one questions the accuracy potential of the 308.
when the 222 was king of the heap in point blank br, the 308 was THE br cartridge at 300 yds/mt.
it is just that the 308 is now about as old as the 303 was when it was usurped.
the 308 struggles at match rifle ranges. it is understood that the 30/06 would be the min 30 cal to suit this discioline,
the 6.5 cal 140 gn bullets can do this easily as ian says.
for an all round icfra calibre, like the 308 is now a small 6.5 has a lot to offer with all compromises taken into account. and balanced with the overall requirement.
keep safe,
bruce.

[jasmay]

Going off what a lot of the Match rifle shooters I know say, I doubt they woudl have it any other way, stretching the limits of the .308 is what they are all about.

Anyway, its a horses for courses thing I guess. You will never please everyone, and humans hate change....

[DenisA]

I don't think any ones said the .308 isn't a good or capable cartridge, but we'd have to be living under a rock not to acknowledge some of the features and advantages of other cartridges, calibres and bullets.

Horses for courses is exactly right, but more importantly, cartridge and calibre selection is about having fun and doing something the individual enjoys for their own reasons with like minded people.

Thats why F-Open's so GREAT........ choice and experimentation!

[jasmay]

Another thing for people to watch if your having issues with recoil in F/Std is weight, I know a lot of guys who dont really pay attention to it apart from being under the 8kg rifle and 10kg total. If your sticking to the maximums in these areas it can mitigate a lot of the issue.

Exactly right Denis, F open really is the big play ground where the do what you want (well, almost) applies.

I'll get my 30/284 up and running on of these days for a play!!!

[DaveMc]

Denis - You are right but that is why we have F open and F standard (and TR) - If you like to experiment with these new cartridges then you go to F open and this is one of the major reasons why it is starting to garner such a following.

FS and TR is about applying a standard cartridge that can be cheaply used and found by everyone.. It does not have to be the best ballistically (But does need to meet the max range requirements).

By changing from 308 there would be 1000's of shooters and rifles drop out of the sport because they would have to spend ($1,000's) to get rebarrelled, rebrassed, new dies etc. Compare to the the humble omark 308 (that some pick up for $300) and cheap factory ammo (try buying some of these other factory rounds) and second hand brass and dies everywhere. and barrels that can last for 5-6000 rounds (and second hand ones everywhere as well). There is absolutely no chance.

Don't worry I often think about taking up ISSF because I would love to shoot a 6BR in TR clothing but there are other much bigger issues here.

Bruce - The 210 and 215 grain projectiles lobbed out of a 308 start to approach a mild 284 ballistically and they are dynamically very stable when they do break the sound barrier.

What we need is ISSF to recognise there is distances beyond 300m!

[BATattack]

There was a guy in tazzy shooting a kelbly with red McMillan stock that (from what I understand) used all his hand loads in the team event and switched to winchester factories .

He was shooting on the target alongside of me and man that thing shot well! Held inside the 6 from what I saw even at the longs.

There aren't many cartridges out there that you could do that with!

I do however like the idea of Bruce's suggestion. My girlfriend is going to have a go at shooting but a 223 is about all she can handle at the moment and they are fairly fussy and less than ideal at the longer ranges