another urban myth bites

[DaveMc]

There you go Bruce, you do speak nicely to a couple of people at least (2 in one thread - wow)

Keep trying I am sure you can turn it around.

[bsouthernau]

Despite having heaped scorn on the urban myth of the inaccurate high-BC bullet I feel obliged to spring at least partially to Bruce's defence.

The more I shoot the more I'm convinced that the biggest factor affecting my scores is where the rifle is pointing when it goes bang. There are two components to this - where I decide it SHOULD point and where it actually DOES point compared to the former factor.

AND I use winchester brass for everything except TR - ADI brass for that. As Paul said a lighter case is a bigger boiler room. But I do spend a lot of time preparing the brass and engage in all the other obsessional facets of reloading. I've got the time and it certainly does no harm.

Barry

[bruce moulds]

dave,
most of those who know me seem to think i am ok.
the rest would burn me at the stake for being a witch.
keep safe,
bruce.

[AlanF]

Bruce,

I would like to make use of the phrase ALL ELSE BEING EQUAL

All else being equal, scores will be improved by:

• Higher BC
• Higher velocity
• Better brass
• Stocks that improve rifle behaviour
• Scopes with more useful features.

How much scores will improve is highly variable.

On the other hand, all else being equal, scores will not be improved by:

• Pimping the stock.

Alan

[DaveMc]

Bruce,
Despite what you think I honestly don't wish you bad tidings. I just wish you would do the same favor for others. If you dealt with people in a decent manner they might actually concede you have something worthwhile to give.

(+1 on your post Alan - Bruce obviously firmly believes there is no way you can achieve those goals and keep the rest equal - he has every right to believe what he wants of course - I just ask him "please don't get so stroppy when others don't have the same beliefs".

Keep safe - but also BE HAPPY

[bsouthernau]

On the other hand, all else being equal, scores will not be improved by:

• Pimping the stock.

Alan

Not so Alan! If you were to replace that stupid looking piece of grey plywood with a bullpup configuration stock with a pistol grip and camo paint job your scores would go through the roof.

Barry

[AlanF]

Barry,

Mine is what you call a depimped stock. If anyone wants to know how to depimp, its quite simple - you just make sure its a functional shape, then ignore it.

Alan

[bruce moulds]

dave,
as doc holiday said to the other gambler in the film tombstone, "does this mean we are not friends anymore ?"
alan,
i would mention a man called adam davies, and say that you seem to feel i speak sacrelidge.
thank god you are not an inquisitor in the middle ages.
scores might be helped by highest bc, but you only need enough.
brass that does the job is sufficient.
scopes and stocks only need what is needed. any more is wasted,
if you knew how my scores went up when i started pimping, you would be quite surprised.
this is an area where you have plenty of room for experimentation.
keep safe,
bruce.

[AlanF]

...alan,
i would mention a man called adam davies, and say that you seem to feel i speak sacrelidge...

As I said Bruce, all else being equal. Adam has been shooting very well. Although, funny you should mention him. At Canberra he had better ballistics with his 6.5x47 than I did with my 284 Shehane .

Alan

[DaveMc]

Bruce I offer my friendship to everyone (and hold no grudges). Whether they accept it is up to them.

[DaveMc]

Onto the original topic. we have recently done a rather extensive review on Winchester vs Lapua 284 brass recently. This involved 3 people all with a very good reputation and several commonly used vs precise scientific ways of measuring case capacity and relating all back to velocity spread and case weights. A great deal of data and work went into this - not just "I shot one good score once"

Interestingly the Winchester cases were heavier (and seem more resistant to case head expansion)
The rest I will keep until we get the time to write it up but will add.

Bruce - If you want to go ahead and use un-batched Winchester Brass I say go for it. A few of the top names I know have been doing it for years.

[Norm]

Short range benchrest = flat base, low recoil, low BC accurate bullets.
Medium range mild conditions = Accurate, low recoil, moderate BC bullet.
Long range wild conditions = High velocity, high BC bullets with adequate accuracy.

You may lean one way or the other but it seems logical to me to match what you shoot to the distance/conditions.

[aaronraad]

I still like the story of the team that sorted and batched all their projectiles to the 'ith degree. One team member turned up to a prize meet only to realise he left his 'A' grade projectiles at home, but happened to have the 'B' & 'C' grade projectiles in the boot of his car. The same team member went on to set a course record and win the event. Sorting and batching projectiles was soon left off the reloading agenda for the team.

[DaveMc]

"I shot one good score once"

A very common phenomenon in this sport is for everyone to remember their "records". The day the stars aligned, conditions were perfect and "I was really switched on". Days like this 6mmBR's break world group records at 1000 yards with mediocre velocity and BC. They also shoot 60.10's at 300 and are a great short range choice. If breaking records is what floats your boat then go this way, shoot a 6BR at all ranges. I appreciate some people like chasing these goals but think you will find more enjoyment in LRBR - which is another extremely enjoyable area of shooting.

IMHO Long range F class shooting is not about breaking world group records!!

to me it is quite logical to go out with a rifle that is going to give you the best chance of a good score in all conditions. Most of the time you get average conditions and sometimes you get some real crap. What happens to you in the crap and more importantly what happens to you as an "average" is the key. As Norm said this is very range dependent. At the shorts there is a lot of rifles in the mix. And if you want some real figures I suggest you study the last years Queens results and who was shooting what caliber at the different ranges. Look at the top 10 in each event- include the 308 scores as well - but tabulate and statistically analyse it properly. There is enough data there. Don't just pick on an individual show of brilliance. Go back some years if you want but it is more relevant to stick in the "what is available now era". Not "I won a queens once back in my day."

The 284 is a brilliant cartridge for all round shooting (300-1000 yards) in Australian conditions. It is highly accurate, holds great velocity spread but also can drive the high BC bullets at a reasonable velocity (and has great barrel life). It stands out in the rankings at all ranges. The average scores for this cartridge are very high across club and Queens events. Same with 300WSM (Paul may have been a visionary here). 308's will keep up (statistically) at 300-600 yards (even further) and now that people are playing with much better long range projectiles we will see the likes of Daryl and Adam (and others) in the mix more often at the longs. The 308 also enjoys great accuracy, very good velocity spread and can drive High BC bullets well.

Now - take another example. Take 7 days of the worlds best shots all shooting 800-1000 yards in what is highly likely to be quite variable conditions (some good some bad - most mediocre). Take a look at what is brought to the table (and wins) there. Most will be the high BC bullets in 7mm and 30 cal. (a handful of 6 and 6.5 driven hard) From 284 through to 7mm WSM and 308 through to 300WSM (or bigger).
These decisions aren't made on marketing hype they are made on collectively millions of rounds sent down range around the world. If velocity +BC + accuracy wasn't king (as well of course as shooter skill) then we would see a different story unfolding.

When Alan says - all else being equal - don't forget you are actually competing with yourself - so by definition all is equal. ( I just have to remember to stop talking to myself!)

[AlanF]

I think that equipment advantage becomes more important the higher the level of the competition. When you get a big field of very good shooters, as will be the case at the FCWC in Raton, the top 10 will be good in every department, not just the basics.

I've noticed in F-Open competition in Australia over the last 5 years, the bigger the field, the less you can afford to have weaknesses (such as ballistic disadvantage).

Alan