another urban myth bites

[bruce moulds]

alan,
that is where you and others totally miss the point.
you say "not just the basics."
it is all about basics and the honing and refining of them.
the culture of fopen has now developed in such a way thet basics has become a non think zone.
there seems to be an overriding belief that silver bullets will do the winning.
keep safe,
bruce.

[AlanF]

Bruce,

Just because people don't talk often about the basics on this forum doesn't mean they aren't doing them. I agree it may give an impression to newcomers that we don't consider the basics. I hope that when a newcomer asks for help, our forum community doesn't try to dazzle them with advanced reloading techniques etc. unless its clear they have a solid grounding in the basics.

Here's a suggestion Bruce - and I'm not trying to be a smart-ass about it :
Could you start a thread in the Equipment & Technical forum with the heading "F-Class Basics"?

Alan

[DaveMc]

great suggestion Alan - and on the fundamentals I would probably be on Bruce's side for once.

A few more questions though Bruce. If you truly believe it is "ALL" about the basics, why do you shoot F open and not standard? and why do you shoot 284? And which projectile do YOU use? It really seems to me you have a double standard here!!!

[DenisA]

Onto the original topic. we have recently done a rather extensive review on Winchester vs Lapua 284 brass recently. This involved 3 people all with a very good reputation and several commonly used vs precise scientific ways of measuring case capacity and relating all back to velocity spread and case weights. A great deal of data and work went into this - not just "I shot one good score once"

Interestingly the Winchester cases were heavier (and seem more resistant to case head expansion)
The rest I will keep until we get the time to write it up but will add.

I'm looking forward to this write up Dave.

[IanP]

jcinsa, (John) has a saying at the bottom of all his posts and it reads thus...

Argue with a fool, and all the casual observer will see is two fools arguing.

Maybe we all should heed this advice!

Back on subject though and Bruce gives us the example of Paul Janzso shooting well without using high BC bullets. Maybe Bruce needs to communicate with Paul and ask him about his new F-Open gun which has been designed around the the highest BC 30 cal bullet Berger make, the 230gr Hybrid. How do I know Paul is doing this? Its because both of us are going with the same magnum case and the new F-Class, game changing, 30 cal bullet that Berger has recently released. The 30 cal, 230gr Hybid has an unbelievably high G1 BC = 0.743 and a G7 BC = 0.380.

Looks like Paul uses high BC bullets Bruce! I wonder why, when really according to you, all he needs is his trusty 190 grainers.

Paul if your reading this, what happened to that 230gr bullet of yours you were going to post to me? Never mind, I got quite a few of them myself delivered recently

Ian

[bruce moulds]

ian,
good to see you supporting your local assn for all members'benefits.
the old pest will be even harder to beat with 230 grainers.
i look forward to meeting your big 30 at a murray bridge 1000 on a windy day.
i do not think dave or anyone else here is a fool. i will only argue with someone i respect.
dave,
yes i use a 284, with 180 to 168 bullets.
180s at 2730 to 2800.
i also shoot, at the same ranges a 40 cal at 1200 and 1300, and a 45 cal at 1300
that cross training has lifted my bar (for want of a better term) on picking wind changes. i have to or i will clean miss the target.
i never once said high bc at high speed was bad. for me it is just too much recoil too little barrel life and more thingsto go wrong.. know your limitations.
at the moment i am thinking of either the 6.5 super lr or x 47lap when i run out of 7mm barrels.
keep safe,
bruce.

[DannyS]

Bruce, I know where you are coming from, everyone wants to increase their performance, by choosing equipment, projectiles etc etc that may give them an advantage.

You c.hose to open a can of worms rather ungraciously, and you have copped the flack since.

Yes,,the basics are the most important, but we still like our toys, thankyou, gun fairy for my march scope. Does it make any difference? No, at the end of the day, if you can't read the wind and be prepared to make the necessary changes, then nothing else matters.

However, we are all different,and like to play, experiment etc.

As for arguements, I would prefer everyone to have discussions. Mates at the end of the day. We are all here for a common purpose.

Take care old mate.

Danny

[bruce moulds]

alan,
one of the most important issues to long range shooters is the wind and the reading of.
i wonder if you created another heading, windreading, equal to equipment and technical, how much it would get used.
i suspect not much at the moment, as most fclass guys and gals seem to think they can buy a win with bc and speed.
in years to come, possibly the topic would receive more attention, as experience grows.
there are people who will not become open shooters because they think it is a techno arms race, and this is our fault.
onya danny. let's have a report on the equipment.
keep safe,
bruce.

[TTBS28]

OK - I've read a lot of banter on this thread - Some of it good, some of it bad and some of it quite aggressive. For what it is worth I think the aggression posts play no part in this forum. We have recently had several new members join our Club and we have suggested that they join this forum site to gain some valuable information. It does all of us no good at all to read slinging matches because somebody doesn't particularly like another persons point of view.

Again - For what it is worth I think Danny's post hits the nail on the head. If somebody wants to experiment - Go for it!! - Why not !!! AND, if they are happy to part with their findings on this forum - again - why not !!! Surely we can all gain from somebody else's time and effort.
If we don't want to experiment ourselves that is fine too - nobody has to do it if they don't want to, do they?

One last point - I for one need to work on the basics first so any posts on wind reading in particular would be most useful. At Lower Light in SA we are getting punished badly over the summer months so all posts on this subject will be studied with interest by me and, no doubt, the new members who are watching what we are all writing Perhaps a separate thread might draw more comment for those with good experience on the matter.

Regards........Jeff. Roberts.

[Norm]

there are people who will not become open shooters because they think it is a techno arms race, and this is our fault.keep safe,
bruce.

This is an interesting comment and may have had some validity in the past, but I think over the next few years this may change.
The reason I say this is that there are limits to the advancement in ballistics that is possible using copper cup and lead core bullets. We are getting near this point with the Berger Hybrid projectile range.
In the future, to get a higher B.C. you will need to go up in calibre size and that will have a recoil penalty.
Just how much recoil a particular shooter can stand over a long string will determine their calibre choice.
We will then be shooting in competitions that are more standardized with fewer variations amongst the shooters. Maybe then the basics will be talked about with interest as you suggest.
That is until some bright spark starts shooting super high B.C. depleted uranium projectiles on the quiet and sets off another projectile arms race.

[DaveMc]

Norm what is really interesting I feel is over the last few year the attitude to recoil seems to be changing. A few years ago everyone was saying the 7mm's had too much and it was too hard to sustain focus through a day of shooting. Nowadays it feels par for the course. The same comments are being made about the 30 cal 230's yet some seem to handle them very well from an 8.25kg FTR outfit!

Will be interesting times and I think even Bruce, Ian and I agree the 300WSM case looks enticing and is proving a reliable performer. I think there will be more seen of this chambering around the traps over the upcoming years. One wonders whether there will soon be an 8mm projectile race - perhaps led by Lapua??

Maybe Aaron could find a niche by designing us a big beautiful 8mm Aussie Projie and we could wrap it in a 9.3* 62 case necked down??

[aaronraad]

Ixnay on the 8mm DaveMc.

I almost spat the dummy last year when I saw Sierra release an 8mm MK, until I saw it was only a 200gr unit.

As I said high BC is a slippery slope, and the other popular projectile maker has now stretched itself beyond capacity given the number of new releases its made in the past 24 months. I'm concerned they won't be able to hold it together and the company will be broken up.

[Norm]

Dave,
I think Peter from Pro-Cal was using a .300 RUM in long range Benchrest for a while with interesting results.
But forget the .300WSM necked up to 8mm for F-Open.
Go for its big brother and avoid having to upgrade down the track to keep in front of the pack.
Actually I am going one step further and have the improved version as can be seen with the cartridge on the right. Should keep me in the arms race for a few weeks until some one necks down a .338 Snipe tac case.
Just waiting for the 8mm depleted uranium projectiles from Aaron.

[bruce moulds]

dave,
yes i do agree that the 300 wsm is interesting, but not from the point of chasing 230/240 gn projectiles.
these bullets might need a bigger case.
i see the 300 wsm as being seriously honest with 190 to 210 gn bullets.
this also applies to the 6.5 in cases from x47 to x55.
honest cartridges are a basic requirement for team shooting, with all members of the team presenting consistent ballistics to the coach with no surprises.
for individual shooting anything goes.
whatever you use, the biggest area any of us can improve is group width, and there is a vanguard including adam davies and pestbird who are starting to deal with this.
while our minds are looking for the technical edge, our minds are not on windreading techniques. human nature will always look for the easy edge at the cost of knuckling down and developing a learning based on a sound foundation.
this is possibly the biggest thing we can learn from tr.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Dave P]

Again we find a debate about something but not really.
Bruce I would contest that as Alan inferred 'all things being equal' ie to take 2 shooters with identical equipment and shooting at the same time o the same range then the superior wind reader/ technician will win 9 out of 10 times.
The fact is that this senario just doesnt happen.
The reality is that a group of shooters with varying degrees of ability across a range of factors including technique, reloading, wind reading etc all shoot over an extened period in changing conditions.
Now in this situation many factors play a part basic technique and wind reading are factors that apply at all times. If your technique and or wind reading is flawed then no amount of equipment purchasing will change that. If however you are shooting for example a low bc bullet slowly then a shooter of equal ability shooting a high bc bullet quickly will have an advantage .. its rather simple really.
Dannys your March scope will make a difference if you have the rest of it right.
Development and experimentation is part of the fun