Myths and Mysticism in Load Development

[Rich4]

Well I have no commercial interest and have tried a few times to indicate your tone could create conflict, but you seem unwilling to accept that sarcasm and assumed superiority are confrontational from your behalf, if you’re worried about those with guns perhaps you are the one who should be thinking twice about ownership, that being said you’ve created an excellent repository of knowledge here, so maybe the confrontational approach was required to goad people into sharing.
I just tend to think if your asking experienced people to confirm something for you to allow you to jump ahead without the legwork a little humility is a nice touch.
Try to keep it light

[DingoDeerHunter]

Well I have no commercial interest and have tried a few times to indicate your tone could create conflict, but you seem unwilling to accept that sarcasm and assumed superiority are confrontational from your behalf, if you’re worried about those with guns perhaps you are the one who should be thinking twice about ownership, that being said you’ve created an excellent repository of knowledge here, so maybe the confrontational approach was required to goad people into sharing.
I just tend to think if your asking experienced people to confirm something for you to allow you to jump ahead without the legwork a little humility is a nice touch.
Try to keep it light

What assumed superiority? Asking for evidence? Critiquing nonsense anecdotes? Calling out an joys falsehoods and people with vested interests. And the sarcasm was directed at me primarily, and sure I give a little back but it is others who have gone personal. And now you want to tell me what I should or shouldn’t do in Public discourse.

I am not writing this for the benefit of people in here who are masters. I am not trying to convince old dogs of new tricks. Nor am I asking for help as you suggest.

I’m writing for my fellow newer entrants and proffering links to smart people doing actual methodical research so the new entrants can avoid the snake oil salesmen and the tail chasing of 3 shot group ladder tests and buying the primer pocket uniformet etc etc.

I am just providing the counter arguments and counter evidence to all this guff. And the histrionic venomous response from some is unwarranted and really does undermine confidence in their character.

I have abused zero people on here - I have kept to facts and evidence and have seen none. I have no superiority other than the superiority of the scientific method, of evidence over rumour, of empiricism over.

People have sought to doxx me, called me offensive names (post was deleted later) and etc but you, dear appeaser of bullies and liars thinks I have to check myself to stop dem bullies being nasty. No is the answer.

I will continue to post all good research and vids I find about these issues and continue to push back against the snake oil salesmen and the anecdotal nonsense. This is how progress is made in any field, by rigorous debate and testing and rethinking.

I know I am more than open to revising my position about one or more reloading techniques or even tuners IF ANY EVIDENCE of an objective veracity arises.

So please stop clogging up this thread with endless advice for me to stop being myself, to express myself more humbly before the lords of the forum or whoever they seem to think they are, so as to appease these bullies and shills and snake oil salesman.

[AlanF]

A well known and highly accomplished Texan F-Class shooter Larry Bartholome was once asked how he dealt with serial pests on forums and he recommended a thing called his "ignore list".

[jasmay]

If you feel as though a general post/reminder to a group on a forum is directed directly at you, instead of as a general reminder to the whole group, perhaps that means you need to inwardly reflect on why you feel that way.

It would seem both sides of arguments often feel they are wasting time…. A timely reminder that if you get to that point, your day will feel much better stepping away and using your time more productively, after all, if it works for you and you are confident it does, what other evidence do you need than gold medals at state, national and world events.

https://tenor.com/uTra.gif

…….

[Gyro]

Frankly dogshooter the part that’s missing from pushing the “data mountain” narrative is the guys who have done a LOT of shooting can read and see all kinds of stuff from the smaller samples ! They are comfortable doing that because they have done a lot of shooting. When a good F gun is going well it’s bloody accurate/precise and when it aint then ya make educated guesses about why. But ya don’t get to that place without doing a lot of work.

And of course the further out you go the more the conditions take there toll on the group and what u can read into it.

And keeping it friendly : ya can't know what ya don't know ?

Get shootn buddy !

[Drop shot]

Well I have no commercial interest and have tried a few times to indicate your tone could create conflict, but you seem unwilling to accept that sarcasm and assumed superiority are confrontational from your behalf, if you’re worried about those with guns perhaps you are the one who should be thinking twice about ownership, that being said you’ve created an excellent repository of knowledge here, so maybe the confrontational approach was required to goad people into sharing.
I just tend to think if your asking experienced people to confirm something for you to allow you to jump ahead without the legwork a little humility is a nice touch.
Try to keep it light

What assumed superiority? Asking for evidence? Critiquing nonsense anecdotes? Calling out an joys falsehoods and people with vested interests. And the sarcasm was directed at me primarily, and sure I give a little back but it is others who have gone personal. And now you want to tell me what I should or shouldn’t do in Public discourse.

I am not writing this for the benefit of people in here who are masters. I am not trying to convince old dogs of new tricks. Nor am I asking for help as you suggest.

I’m writing for my fellow newer entrants and proffering links to smart people doing actual methodical research so the new entrants can avoid the snake oil salesmen and the tail chasing of 3 shot group ladder tests and buying the primer pocket uniformet etc etc.

I am just providing the counter arguments and counter evidence to all this guff. And the histrionic venomous response from some is unwarranted and really does undermine confidence in their character.

I have abused zero people on here - I have kept to facts and evidence and have seen none. I have no superiority other than the superiority of the scientific method, of evidence over rumour, of empiricism over.

People have sought to doxx me, called me offensive names (post was deleted later) and etc but you, dear appeaser of bullies and liars thinks I have to check myself to stop dem bullies being nasty. No is the answer.

I will continue to post all good research and vids I find about these issues and continue to push back against the snake oil salesmen and the anecdotal nonsense. This is how progress is made in any field, by rigorous debate and testing and rethinking.

I know I am more than open to revising my position about one or more reloading techniques or even tuners IF ANY EVIDENCE of an objective veracity arises.

So please stop clogging up this thread with endless advice for me to stop being myself, to express myself more humbly before the lords of the forum or whoever they seem to think they are, so as to appease these bullies and shills and snake oil salesman.

[DingoDeerHunter]

A little posse aren’t you. Weak people need to group together I guess. No wonder this sport is shrinking - vacuous nasty little pieces of work ….

The fact you’re wasting time making one off memes for me simply means I am now living rent free in your head. And next time under pressure on the mound you’re going to be doubting your 1.7345 neck tension and 2 clicks right tuner setting are actually doing diddly squat, and that’s a good thing - cos the truth is always better than the lie.

None of this childish ad hominem rubbish changes anything, for 8 pages of forum you have collectively produced zero evidence of tuner effectiveness, barrel harmonics, small groups being useful.

“People can read groups” - sure, people read tea leaves as well.

So, somehow despite sample sizes of 1000 not showing any nodes that aren’t just noise, some people can read the 3 shot groups … miraculous. And ridiculous in 2023 - this is not the Middle Ages.

The success good people have will be a combination of good components, highly disciplined reloading to ensure as much homogeneity of production and outright shooter skill. The fact that some of these people swear by some snake oil or other is not to the point, it’s still snake oil being held up by all the other skills and practices around it.

Anyway, I beat most of the field yesterday shooting sako factory ammo to fire form it for later reloading. I’d be the newest shooter and the least expensive rifle. But I just couldn’t read the secret message in my groups … perhaps I was a tuner click or two away from 60.10 or perhaps I didn’t do the right prayer to the right Hindu god - such is the wisdom here it seems.

Pashol na Huey

[Gyro]

A well known and highly accomplished Texan F-Class shooter Larry Bartholome was once asked how he dealt with serial pests on forums and he recommended a thing called his "ignore list".

I didn't listen Alan. Sorry. I needed to butt my head into that post again.

[!Peter!]

I'll leave this for those who have enquiring minds seeking well written information.
http://www.geoffrey-kolbe.com/articles/rimfire_accuracy/tuning_a_barrel.htm
http://www.geoffrey-kolbe.com/articles/rimfire_accuracy/modelling_barrel_vibrations.htm

While it's based on rimfire, the physics are the same....

[Drop shot]

A little posse aren’t you. Weak people need to group together I guess. No wonder this sport is shrinking - vacuous nasty little pieces of work ….

The fact you’re wasting time making one off memes for me simply means I am now living rent free in your head. And next time under pressure on the mound you’re going to be doubting your 1.7345 neck tension and 2 clicks right tuner setting are actually doing diddly squat, and that’s a good thing - cos the truth is always better than the lie.

None of this childish ad hominem rubbish changes anything, for 8 pages of forum you have collectively produced zero evidence of tuner effectiveness, barrel harmonics, small groups being useful.

“People can read groups” - sure, people read tea leaves as well.

So, somehow despite sample sizes of 1000 not showing any nodes that aren’t just noise, some people can read the 3 shot groups … miraculous. And ridiculous in 2023 - this is not the Middle Ages.

The success good people have will be a combination of good components, highly disciplined reloading to ensure as much homogeneity of production and outright shooter skill. The fact that some of these people swear by some snake oil or other is not to the point, it’s still snake oil being held up by all the other skills and practices around it.

Anyway, I beat most of the field yesterday shooting sako factory ammo to fire form it for later reloading. I’d be the newest shooter and the least expensive rifle. But I just couldn’t read the secret message in my groups … perhaps I was a tuner click or two away from 60.10 or perhaps I didn’t do the right prayer to the right Hindu god - such is the wisdom here it seems.

Pashol na Huey

[PeteFox]

This post has morphed into the ridiculous but it's a great topic and well worth continuing, but it would be much better without personal attacks and soap boxes.
So here we go with an attempt at analysis without personal attacks.

----------
"Why did the chicken cross the road?"

Whether the chicken crossed the road or the road moved beneath the chicken depends upon your frame of reference. A. Einstein.

This might explain some of the 'one-eyedness' around here.
However the loudness of personal attacks is not related to the above, but it is the inverse of being able to mount a logical argument.

----------
So we have some respected pundits in the shooting world who have raised doubts about the validity of some long held beliefs. whether it's tuners, powder load or nodes, doesn't matter. The thing is it challenges long held beliefs. I would have thought it was an opportunity to learn, to improve or shoot more X's.
But no, around here, it goes retrograde, back to the dark ages.

---------

Reminds me of an historical lesson.
Back in 1842, one CJ Doppler proposed a theory of Doppler shift - you know, that same theory that is at work in your LabRadar, is used in medicine and space exploration. Commonly called red-shift.
He was ridiculed for 26 years because it didn't fit commonly held beliefs, until one W Huggins made observations that proved him correct.
The "commonly held beliefs" (the existence of luminiferous ether) were mumbo-jumbo, but fitted the observations of the believers and so morphed into "fact".

So beware, that ridicule you are dishing out could come back as egg in face.

I suspect that Litz and Co. are correct and if so, they are doing the non believers a favour by correcting a myth. If Litz and Co aren't correct then they are still doing non believers a favour by reinforcing belief in the status quo and giving knowledge of where to look for improvement.
Pete

[jasmay]

This is another study on tuners, more rigor and a larger sample size… but I suspect it will be dismissed on some grounds by some folk somewhere….

https://www.kineticsecuritysolutions.co ... ng-results

[Gyro]

This is another study on tuners, more rigor and a larger sample size… but I suspect it will be dismissed on some grounds by some folk somewhere….

https://www.kineticsecuritysolutions.co ... ng-results

Nah sorry Jase nodes don't exist. Except when ya go to a shoot and ya gun that was going really well now shoots like a dog ! Must have just been me ?

[Drop shot]

This post has morphed into the ridiculous but it's a great topic and well worth continuing, but it would be much better without personal attacks and soap boxes.
So here we go with an attempt at analysis without personal attacks.

----------
"Why did the chicken cross the road?"

Whether the chicken crossed the road or the road moved beneath the chicken depends upon your frame of reference. A. Einstein.

This might explain some of the 'one-eyedness' around here.
However the loudness of personal attacks is not related to the above, but it is the inverse of being able to mount a logical argument.

----------
So we have some respected pundits in the shooting world who have raised doubts about the validity of some long held beliefs. whether it's tuners, powder load or nodes, doesn't matter. The thing is it challenges long held beliefs. I would have thought it was an opportunity to learn, to improve or shoot more X's.
But no, around here, it goes retrograde, back to the dark ages.

---------

Reminds me of an historical lesson.
Back in 1842, one CJ Doppler proposed a theory of Doppler shift - you know, that same theory that is at work in your LabRadar, is used in medicine and space exploration. Commonly called red-shift.
He was ridiculed for 26 years because it didn't fit commonly held beliefs, until one W Huggins made observations that proved him correct.
The "commonly held beliefs" (the existence of luminiferous ether) were mumbo-jumbo, but fitted the observations of the believers and so morphed into "fact".

So beware, that ridicule you are dishing out could come back as egg in face.

I suspect that Litz and Co. are correct and if so, they are doing the non believers a favour by correcting a myth. If Litz and Co aren't correct then they are still doing non believers a favour by reinforcing belief in the status quo and giving knowledge of where to look for improvement.
Pete

This is patently not the case, and whilst it MAY SEEM like a personal attack to you or dingo, If i was to say that you had 2 arms, that would be a fact. 2 eyes, fact. Point out you have a shit attitude though, oh no criticism!!! Ad hominemsss!!!! Personal Attacks!!!!!!!

No mate, negative reinforcement to devalidate and discourage poor attitude and conduct - something that has been pointed out quite a bit and to ignore has to be a deliberate choice to miss the mark.

To conduct yourself poorly, then cry you're the victim is the TRUE definition of weakness.

Bryan may be right, he maybe be wrong - information is good and the more information the better.

Poor attitude on the other hand, does not deserve time and respect, and therefore it won't get it - and there has been a united front form against that.

I'm genuinely shocked that anyone would come in here at this point and plant their flag in allegiance of dingo

Going off your responses, you're siding with litz and have similarly taken a condescending tone and approach to the discussion - the mind wanders to whether Dingo may just be a smurf account.

There is no value to be had here regardless, because the litz fan boys just think everyone else is wrong, and the none litzers, despite applying skill knowledge and experience and showing examples and bringing up elements of the tests that maybe be flawed and variables etc etc - will never be right, will never be heard, because the lizters don't want to listen. Don't want to see. They are here to lecture and smugly talk down to people when they try to bring up elements to the discussion.

So gallop through here on your high horse all you want, but targets are up champ and the ones who declared it were the targets themselves.

I'm SHOCKED this this forum has been allowed to continue, but here we are.

[DingoDeerHunter]

I'll leave this for those who have enquiring minds seeking well written information.
http://www.geoffrey-kolbe.com/articles/rimfire_accuracy/tuning_a_barrel.htm
http://www.geoffrey-kolbe.com/articles/rimfire_accuracy/modelling_barrel_vibrations.htm

While it's based on rimfire, the physics are the same....

That was excellent to read.

Someone did a thesis as well, I will say now that perhaps some movement does occur prior to muzzle exit - this thesis was very thorough. It also commends tuning, but it also shows that a twiddly knob in the end of the barrel isn’t how you tune it, but rather a series of weights along the barrel at different modes of action. Very interesting!!

https://scholarworks.uvm.edu/cgi/viewco ... graddis%22