CNC Projectiles Coming Soon!

[IanP]

I have wished I had available a really high BC 6.5mm bullet because this calibre is perfect for me. Not too big, not too small, its just right and soon I will be able to get the really high BC bullets I want.

CNC lathe turned bronze bullets for the same price we are paying for our current copper jacketed lead variety. Bring it on!!!!!!!

Target Shooter Ezine have run the article with a very interesting picture in this months edition and will have some test results for us to read in next months edition.

Look here on page 9: http://www.targetshooter.co.uk/

Ian

[bruce moulds]

hi ian, looks like the current lead core suppliers are starting to price themselves out of business!
these monolithic bullets have been experimented with a fair bit of latter years.
the main things that have been learned are that to have a high b.c., they need to be quite a bit longer than lead cored bullets, thus requiring faster twists for any benefit.
this can present increased issues with precession and nutation, and rifle torque.
i have been watching developments in this area, but have decided to wait until things are worked out a little more.
i believe some of the cheytec system involves cnc bullets.
bruce.

[M12LRPV]

I'm of the belief that bronze is harder than the lead and copper.

What are these things going to do to a barrel?

Not trying to criticise them, but we did have to change rifling design going from lead to jacketed bullets 100 odd years ago.

[bruce moulds]

m12,
today's rifling is basically rigby, or enfield as designed by metford, both from the late 1800s.
bruce.

[Woody_rod]

I have made some monolithic bullets on my CNC machine for a stunt. They come out pretty good, so far made for 30 cal in bore rider config (so the bullet does not harm the rifling - due to harder material).

Specs: 171 grains, can't remember the diameters (there are two diameters for bore riders), but they fit my barrel nicely. Has very long nose, secant ogive at 16 caliber radius I think from memory, nose is down to 0.030" diameter (0,75mm) which is very sharp.

Also has longish boat tail, to specs I found online for bullet designs. Don;'t know much about the technical theory really.

Yes, they are very long, much more so than typical 155 grain SMK or similar.

Will try to post some pics, they look bloody awesome really....

They are very easy to make, despite anything people may say. Not sure if the price could be sensible, I havn't done any numbers on it.

[Woody_rod]

Sone other things about "mono" bullets:

Although barrels may be 6,5mm (or whatever), what that means exactly is individual to each barrel. This means that each series of bullets (unlike copper/lead ones) can be made to a certain size on request.

For example, a 307 or 308 cal bullet can be made easily enough, and anything in between at something like 0,005mm increments = 0.00008" roughly.

I am not offering this service per se, but simply letting people know it can be done. No doubt at some price point above a "standard" size.

If using a bore rider config, it would be prudent to rethink the throat length of the chamber. Basically, there would be no throat as such, as the larger diameter is often back inside the case neck, the smaller diameter already inside the bore. More food for thought. The idea of "auto alignment" for the bullet in the bore is an interesting benefit.

[IanP]

Interesting stuff Rod!

Ian

[johnk]

I wonder if they will face the same issues here as they have on MOD ranges in Britain, where they've been banned? I understand that the issue was to do with safety, but what the specific problem was, I don't know.

[Woody_rod]

Actually, I thought about the safety issue myself later on, after posting the above comment.

I think it was raised as an issue somewhere...recochets and such being more prevalent??

[Razer]

Have been watching this thread just to see how far it would go before the issue of safety arose. The most likely reason for the ban would come back to what projectiles are constructed and designed for. As an age impaired hunter I now spend more time on the range than hunting
If I was to try shooting say a buffalo, with a target bullet, the bullet would disintegrate on the hide and I would become the dead meat. If I used a Barnes solid it would penetrate right through,mushroom, and end up just under the offside hide and the buffalo would be the dead meat.
I would not like to be "up range" if solids were ever allowed on a range as there is the possibility that with their greater penetration, even a marker could be at risk. There is also of course, a greater chance of ricochet which would create an extra danger zone, where as a target bullet with it's light construction would most likely disintegrate.
Horses for courses is the rule, just my point of view.
Ray.

[IanP]

The safety issue is an interesting one and I too read what little they had to say about it in the UK.

If lead is to be phased out in projectiles then tests will have to be conducted by range authorities as to what changes need to be made to ensure safety.

It would not necessarily mean major changes and great expense to make safe for solid projectile use. The important thing to remember is that tests need to be conducted and data gathered before we can say what needs to be done. Without the necessary facts being gathered we are only imagining what problems may arise.

If there are problems with safety for our markers then we would need to engineer them out before solid projectiles could be used in competitions. A risk assessment would need to be conducted by the range authorities before solids ever get the nod of approval.

Ian

[Razer]

I can see why lead shot is now banned as when used to harvest water birds the spent shot ends up in the bottom of the waterway to later be ingested by ducks,etc. feeding with their heads down and bum up. This then gets recycled in several ways such as the hunter eating duck, duck voiding lead contaminated droppings on pasture,etc.
I have yet to see any feral or native animal ingesting spent hunting ammo so can see no need to move away from lead core projectiles. Also solid projectiles would not have the destructive affect on thin skinned game as lead core, as they would pass straight through, leaving more wounded animals and continue to be a danger to anything in the background. That is the hunting situation.
Next we have the Military who spray vast amounts of ammo around and I have seen nothing about lead contamination showing up in a negative way at sites on the Western Front where millions of rounds were used in small areas.
If we use Rod's way,which is practical for selected barrels, to machining solids for military use it would be logistically impossible to match projectiles to individual barrels, and there are other reasons such as barrel wear in rapid fire weapons,etc. so the military won't change. Barnes solids are designed with grooves to reduce bearing area in the barrel but then again they are still not designed for stages of 12,or rapid fire.
The point that I am endeavouring to make is that solids will never replace lead core for many and various reasons[not to mention making thousands of bullet making machines obsolete and manufacturers having to retool] If we also have to consider the humble .22 rimfire having a solid projectile it would turn what is a relatively safe plinking/rabbit rifle into something far more lethal.
In a nutshell I just can't see lead core projectiles ever becoming superseded by solid projectiles and of a consequence will consider the status quo will remain.
Ray.

[IanP]

Hey Razer, a word from the wise, "never say never"! Have you heard about ballistic tip bullets? these plastic tips could be used in solid bullets too.

There are solids that expand pretty well all by themselves available here: http://www.gsgroup.co.za/04hp.html

Have a look at the selection of solid projectiles produced by this African company, its pretty impressive. http://www.gscustom.co.za/

Barnes Bullets have solid copper bullets with ballistic tips plus lots more. Look here: http://www.barnesbullets.com/

Solid projectiles are already being made in Australia look here: http://www.predatorprojectiles.com.au/

A German guy Lutz Moeller really got the ball rolling years ago. Look here : http://airbornecombatengineer.typepad.c ... g_rus.html

More stuff here: http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com/20 ... of-bronze/

There is plenty of info on solid bullets and they are already being used on game and in target shooting. They are even being used on small game, prairie dogs, in the USA and on everything in between in Africa.

These solid projectiles will one day soon just become another type of bullet to select for our sport. It wont happen overnight and there is plenty of time to wear out existing barrels long before solids become mainstream.

Ian

[extremeprecision]

I discussed the issue of range safety of monolithic bullets in detail with a Defence Inspector of Rifle Ranges a few years ago. His casual opinion was that they probably presented no greater risk than full metal jackets in regard to stable ricochets and possibly less as the fineness of the ogive is more easily bent out of shape. This does not constitute an "official" opinion.

[Woody_rod]

Hmmm, interesting thinking.

My idea was what "could" be done, not how "I would do it". To make matched bullets, it would cost probably more than AU$1.50 ea or more for 30 cal. Not very cost effective.

I didn' think about a ballistic tip - now that is a good idea. Drill the nose out and replace with a plastic insert. Solves issues (possibly) in ricochets and expansion for hunting?