Savage 12 f/tr issues

[slzagrodnik]

I use the Wheeler Fat Wrench for my inch pound torque settings on my Barnard actions and Mastin stock when I switch from 223rem to 308 win. for F/TR competition. Also check that your scope is properly levelled and not canted. Wheeler also makes this tool. Enjoy the rifle, shooters with this rifle tell me it takes 200-300 rounds for the barrel to polish out to its potential. After 2500-3000 rounds put a custom barrel on it.

[higginsdj]

Thanks all.

I think I might have a small nick on the crown. I'll have to take a closer look at it when I get home tonight. I must have been somewhat careless at some point. If it is a nick I'll have to get the local gunshop smithy to cut/polish it out.

Cheers

David

[bruce moulds]

david,
sometimes too much cheek pressure due to the cheekpiece being too high can be an issue.
with bedding, it is my belief that it should be stress free on the action, thus negating the need for a torque wrench.
most factory rifles benefit from a decent stress free bedding job.
keep safe,
bruce.

[macguru]

Spot on about cheek pressure Bruce, its best to keep it ultra light and use the neck muscles to hold your head steady, dont you think ?
In my experience people are too ready to blame the scope before tuning the loads. Its a new rifle with pillar bedding and a proven scope, so provided the action screws and scope rail are not actually loose David should get to the 100-200m range and shoot some groups to tune the rifle.
BTW if you start with 45-6gr 2208 and a sierra 2156 just off the lands you should be in the ballpark ! I would not trust HBC at the moment (saw one with a bent meplat the other day). Nosler are OK at closer ranges but i have had a load work at 3-4-500, and deteriorate in accuracy at 6-7-800... Bergers are great but... well you know....


cheers andrew

[bruce moulds]

andrew,
the rifle being an ftr model could do well with some berger hybrids.
the 185 berger lrbthp is apparrently pretty good.
not sure what factory ammo was tested here, but some of that soft point hunting ammo leaves a bit to be desired.
if the crowning is damaged it should be repaired by a qualified person.
i once had a sako 30/06 which would not shoot whatever was tried, until i had fitted a hart 1/10 twist barrel, and then it won off rifle in many scheutzen events.
i mention this because even the mighty sako can slip the odd one through. sako has a good name for accuracy, and the savage target rifles probably even better in general.
i can load consistent ammo in my nesika 284 which is not particularly accurate, but with the right ammo it is ok.
keep safe,
bruce.

[higginsdj]

Spot on about cheek pressure Bruce, its best to keep it ultra light and use the neck muscles to hold your head steady, dont you think ?
In my experience people are too ready to blame the scope before tuning the loads. Its a new rifle with pillar bedding and a proven scope, so provided the action screws and scope rail are not actually loose David should get to the 100-200m range and shoot some groups to tune the rifle.
BTW if you start with 45-6gr 2208 and a sierra 2156 just off the lands you should be in the ballpark ! I would not trust HBC at the moment (saw one with a bent meplat the other day). Nosler are OK at closer ranges but i have had a load work at 3-4-500, and deteriorate in accuracy at 6-7-800... Bergers are great but... well you know....


cheers andrew

Just have to wait till shooters.com.au actually get some powder in...... no idea when that will be.

So the action screws can't be too tight (short of stripping the thread of course). I've been 'dry firing' for the first time over the past couple of evenings. The stock is 5cm short of my measured Length of pull but extending the stock doesn't really feel comfortable so I've left it short. I've also added a cheek piece so that it allows me to rest my cheek on the stock and see through the scope. If I apply cheek pressure then my eyeline falls below the scope so just resting my head/cheek on the cheek piece seems to be the sweet spot. I really can't recall what I was doing on the range - I must have been resting the side of my jaw on the stock to see through the scope....

The other advantage of using the cheek piece is that the butt sits lower on my shoulder/chest (ie not my collar bone) so I can play with the height of the rear bag to get something comfortable. One thing I recall I was doing was pulling the butt hard into the shoulder and moving my body to line up on the target. I guess this is too heavy handed and inconsistent for any form of accuracy.

When on the firing line and actually shooting, one easily forgets what one should be doing

I assume that I should be simply 'resting' the butt into the correct part of my shoulder/chest and using the rear bag (squeezing bag or the ears) to point the scope reticule at the centre of the target. If I then just have my index finger on the trigger pulling backward, then the only backward pressure on my shoulder should be the weight of the trigger and alignment is continually controlled by the left hand on the rear bag. Does this sound right? (In theory, inconsistent cheek pressure should show up as difficulty in keeping the scope centred on the target - or my trigger pull is off centre!)

Cheers

David

[DannyS]

David, just reading through your last post, what I think you really need to do, is to get out on the range and spend some time with someone that is a good f class shooter.

Get them to check out your hold, position etc.

It will save hours of frustration from trying to work it out for yourself.

[higginsdj]

The only time I have available at the moment is the Saturday afternoon comp shoot and although other members are willing to chat and offer advice they tend to point the finger to someone else to get hands on help from.

Cheers

David

[DannyS]

Ok. First thing dont ask someone for help whilst they are getting their geat ready, most of us like to do this quietly and need a bit of time to study conditions etc.

Check out who are the best shooters and talk to them, be prepared to listen. Write things down if you need to.

If what you say is correct, about fellow club members not wanting to help, then they need to have a good look at themselves. How can you get new members if you dont help them?

Come on you Canberra guys, one of you must be willing to help David

[DannyS]

Hi David,

May I suggest a few things and please don't take this the wrong way.

You are new to the sport and you obviously have things to learn as we all have had to.

Firstly, forget about handloading at this stage, unless you have someone that is experienced and can mentor you. Handloading is great but unless you really know what you are doing, you can get into trouble.

You have mentioned that you are using factory ammo but I don't think you mentioned what type. You should be able to get some Winchester Palma ammo from one of the state rifle associations or maybe someone on this forum has some. Whilst it may not be quite as accurate as properly tuned handloads it should still get you a reasonable score.

You also mentioned that your groups whilst running in at 25 yards were all over the place. From what I have found over the years is that whilst accuracy may improve as more loads are fired from a new barrel, groups at run -in should still be pretty good. At 25 yards I would be expecting a ragged one hole at least'

Re length of pull, if you were shooting with a sling then length of pull is critical but not so much with F Class. Personally, I like to shoot with the butt plate barely touching my shoulder.

Cheek pressure is also not as critical in F Class, some shooters don't even touch the stock with their cheek preferring to use their neck muscles to hold their head in position, what is critical is that whatever you do must be constant, if you rest your cheek on the stock like I do, then you cheek pressure must be the same for every shot. Any movement from slight shaking due to nerves will show up on the target. Cheek pressure must also not be used to align your sights on the target.

I don't know what sort of bipod/front rest you are using. If you are using a Harris type bipod then they tend to need loading up, ie the feet need to be gripping the ground and you need a bit of forward tension on the bipod, which means shoulder pressure on the buttplate. This pressure also needs to be constant.

When setting up your rifle on the mound, look at your target before lying down, ie when kneeling, line up your rifle and rear rest with the target, then when you lie down, you should only have to make small adjustments to get your rifle and scope in line with the target. Basically you should be able to look through your scope and be on target with your rifle just sitting there on its front and rear rests. Your left hand should then just squeese the ears of the rear bag for final sighting.

I also suggest that you use the heaviest rear bag that you can get and don't sit it on your matt. Sit it on the ground with your matt behind it. If you have the rear bag on your matt then every movement you make can move that bag.

Your right hand should not be used for aiming the rifle, its sole job is to enable your finger to activate the trigger.

Don't concentrate on your score, concentrate on your performance, try to fire each shot as perfectly as you can and scores will follow. Also don't play around with your scope too much, learn to shoot groups and then over time you can learn to reduce the size of the group.

A little trick when using your sighters and I am always amazed at how many shooters don't know how to do this. Say you have estimated the wind and fired your first sighter, the target comes up and the spotting disc indicates a 3 etc, don't try to calculate how much you have to adjust your scope. Just aim at the centre again and then whilst looking through the scope and without moving your rifle, wind your crosshairs up and over until they are on the spotter. When you fire the next shot, all going well you should be very close to your point of aim.

I trust some of this is helpful.

Cheers
Danny

[bruce moulds]

good post danny.
bruce.

[AlanF]

Yes, right on the money.

[higginsdj]

Thanks Danny,

I've been handloading pistol ammunition for a while so the handloading process is not new to me. (I have been and continue to shoot pistol - air, 22 and 9mm for some time)

I buy boxes of Winchester Palma ammo from the Club and this has been working well with the Omark (shoot low to mid 50's to date at all distances) At 25m I was not trying for accuracy - just firing off shots to complete the minimum run in count and get very rough sight values for 300 and 600m. I did find it very difficult to hold the scope reticule steady on the aim mark at 25m (at 42x magnification) but the front bipod was loose and I was gripping the stock hard.

I am still bruising up my collar bone, so I obviously have some way to go to find the right place for the butt on my shoulder (still too far left on my body. The cheek piece moves the butt placement further right but yet to try it with actual shots)

I use one of Davies Triggers F/TR lightweight aluminum bipods and have everything set up on top of my ground mat, bipod, rear bag etc (we have concrete slabs on our mounds in Canberra). My rear bag is a Protektor (14BDBB) Deluxe Bunny-Ear Rear Bag sitting on a block of wood to raise it to a 'comfortable' height.

Shooting groups would be good, but shooting groups in a Canberra wind..... I know what you mean and it is something I teach in Pistol. With the Omark I am able to get to the target centre by my first scoring shot and just leave the scope alone and I can generally keep everything inside the 5 and 6. With the Savage, I haven't hit the targets centre yet and only got 2 shots inside the 5.... But I will try your scope adjustment "trick". (I've heard it before but seem to forget 'everything' when I am behind that rifle and pulling the trigger

Cheers

David

[DannyS]

Hi David,

Now we know what sort of ammo you are using, thats good, we can forget the ammo issue.

Ok, you shoot off concrete, still get your gear of your shooting mat, put a small carpet matt under your bipod and put your rear bag on the ground. It is ok to us a timber spacer under the rear bag if needed to assist with elevation, but make sure that the bag doesn't move on the timber, ie put some thin non-slip material on it.

You have a Davies bipod, so that is good, when you shot, have a look and see how far the rifle moves off target under recoil. It shouldn't move far, if it does, then your position is not right, adjust your position so that the rifle recoils almost straight back.

If you are hurting your collar bone then that would seem to indicate that the butt of the rifle is not in the correct position, it should be in the meaty part of your shoulder (unless of course you done have much meat on your bones), try experimenting with where you place your right elbow. I like to lie down so that my spine is basically in parallel with the barrel others prefer to be more on an angle.

With your scope, presuming it is a variable, then lower the magnification, generally I find 32 power is ample and sometimes even less. The other week I used it on 15 due to heavy mirage at 900 yards. And if it is very windy and your are getting buffeted by the wind then a lower power will assist you in getting a reasonable sight picture.

When I mentioned about shooting groups, my reason was that a lot of shooters tend to chase the spotter, ie they fire a shot and automatically adjust the scope to bring the shot back into the centre without really considering if it was the wind that caused the loss in score or poor performance, they then compound the situation by putting the next shot out the opposite direction.

Yes Canberra can be a windy range but don't think you are alone, the other week I had 16 right wind on at Hamilton at 800 yards. And I well remember shooting fullbore in a DRA championship at 900 yards (also at Hamilton) with 27 right wind using the club rifle.

Practice setting up your gear at home (I quite often do it in the hallway) refine your position so that the butt contacts your shoulder correctly, your cheek touches the cheek piece the same each time and that your scope aligns with your eye easily, move your scope backwards and forwards until you get it in the right spot so that you are not hunting for a clear sight picture. And practice dry firing (use a snap cap).

Concentrate on your good shoots and forget about the bad ones.

Also try to get someone at the club to look at your rifle re scope mounts, bedding etc. And then get one of the really good shooters to fire a few shots through it.

Cheers

Danny

[Quinny]

As a fellow Savage F/TR owner, I may be able to help here. A few points from my findings:

1. My rifle HATES 155gn projectiles - struggles to keep 5 shots under 1" with Dyers, Sierras or Noslers. I would be interested to try the Lapua Scenars though.

2. My rifle is very fussy on loads - I use a 168gn Sierra Matchking with 45.3gn of 2208, Lapua brass and CCI BR primers. I find this load very good (far more accurate than I am), however, it could probably be better with more load testing.

3. I torque my action screws to 35/25/25 in-lbs (front, middle, rear).

4. I have had the action glass bedded, which seems to have made a bit of difference with consistency of groupings.

5. The factory cheek-piece is junk - I replaced mine with a Karsten one, never regretted it for a second.

I have only done F-Class a couple of times with it. Last time out, I shot 48 at 700m with a 40km/h crosswind, and I am far from a brilliant shooter at long range, so someone more experienced could easily better that if they were shooting my rifle.