Action timing

[Brad Y]

Barry

This guy in the USA who actually put this video up is aware of it and fixes not only the bolt close but also maintains the pin fall as well. I know its not real productive sitting on the computer all day and watching videos but the more and more I see of competition guns working over there, the more I realise that alot of them have very very slick actions.

One thing I did think about last night was if someone was to experience this and try taking metal off a cocking piece or trigger sear, it generally cant be removed! If too much is taken off, then they would end up with another problem? I have an engineering contact in Vic and might take the sear piece out of my kelbly trigger to see if its possible for him to make copies of it 10, 20, 30 thou shorter (or longer if need be) I know it would probably be a few bucks but less risk than grinding metal! Will wait and see just how it pans out when the action gets here.

[AlanF]

Never heard the phrase " Action Timing " before....

I have. It was in a war movie "OK men, its time for action...."
Barry, if you as a manufacturer of actions haven't heard of it, then maybe we should call it something else e.g. Barnardising?

[Barry Davies]

Considering some of the " fixes " I have seen, I would call it" Bastardising"
Brad,
It's generally no problem to grind some metal of either the cocking piece or sear--done plenty of them. Adding metal is a different thing ( seen that done too but usually finishes up with an item that is too soft)
Most times it does'nt matter to lose some firing pin fall as most rifles are overdesigned in that respect. Generally on modern actions with relatively heavy firing pin springs (or belville washers ) there is sufficient energy to reduce pin fall to 5 or 6 mm without creating problems with missfires.

[Brad Y]

Ive sent a message to my engineering contact to see what he says.

[Fergus Bailey]

Fergus- BAT's also have the luxury of the adjustable trigger hanger for timing too. Bordens come timed with a trigger. Im expecting a new multiflat action to arrive shortly from pierce. My previous round pierce was way out when I introduced a kelbly trigger to it. Another gunsmith (no longer working) got it to the point that it wouldnt shallow strike, but bolt lift was shocking and the bolt handle had a noticeable jump when using a snap cap. I dont expect the new action to have the same dramas but if it does it would be good to know if someone is able to assist with it.

Yes, they do. And its a good feature. But I also have bats that have needed work due to the bolt handle positioning.

In my experience in competition and also discussing this with top level BR shooters in Australia and the USA, I would say that a majority of BAT actions have had work on timing/firing mechanism issues. Having said that, I have 2 different BAT actions that have shot to a standard of winning events in Australia and the USA straight from the factory with no work done to them. Its just a lottery buying actions, though most will come good - ie be competitive at BR matches - with some work. I did have one custom action that just would not shoot - I spent 2 frustrating years trying to fix the problem before giving up on it.

[DenisA]

Never heard the phrase " Action Timing " before.
Looking at the video linked to Brad's post showing the bolt closing on the two rifles. If that is what is termed "action timing " then the one on the left is perfectly timed and the one one the right is less than perfect.
It comes down to having the bolt lugs lock in just as the cocking piece contacts the trigger sear.
The rifle on the right has sear contact before the locking lugs lock in necessitating a push forward of the bolt handle against spring tension making cocking somewhat difficult, much like the old military actions which partially cocked on closing as against modern actions which cock on opening.
The problem that exists with the rifle on the right can be fixed in a number of ways.
The easiest way is to work on the interface between cocking piece and trigger sear. Metal can be removed from either the cocking piece or the trigger sear until " timing" is satisfactory, BUT-- whatever metal is removed from either directly reduces firing pin fall and could result in misfires.
Another way to ease the problem is to chamfer all of the bolt lugs on the leading edge thereby assisting the bolt to " pull in " when cocking.
It really is a job for a competent gunsmith.

Thanks Barry, that explanation made the topic very clear to me.

How critical is action timing in hindsight?

Using an example of 2 similar 1/4 minute rifles where the tunes are sitting in the middle of a long node, one having a perfectly timed action and the other being less than perfect. What would the consequence be of the later.

From my layman point of view, it seems like action timing might be a fix when there's a problem there effecting accuracy rather than a necessity for accuracy.

Is it a case of a perfectly timed action simply feels nicer than something less than perfect. Maybe like comparing a Rolex to Seiko.

[Barry Davies]

I don't believe " action Timing " whether perfect or otherwise has anything to do with accuracy.
It's all to do with how easy the bolt closes,which I guess ultimately makes shooting quicker and may be an advantage in rapid firing with less effort in cocking ( read as less disturbance of the rifle and quicker cycling )

[DenisA]

I don't believe " action Timing " whether perfect or otherwise has anything to do with accuracy.
It's all to do with how easy the bolt closes,which I guess ultimately makes shooting quicker and may be an advantage in rapid firing with less effort in cocking ( read as less disturbance of the rifle and quicker cycling )

For now I'll stick to my Seiko's then. Thanks for clearing that up for me Barry.

[Brad Y]

I think overall, timing might get tied up in with lock time/ignition since your not only trying to get the bolt opening and closing smooth but your also trying to keep pin fall at the correct amount as well. Im definitely no expert but slowly reading/learning from the net. I find this stuff interesting. Also it would come into play when blueprinting a factory action to get the most out of them accuracy wise, timing would also be checked and adjusted if necessary.

[Brad Y]

Another link with videos. Im very tempted to measure up my varmint rifle action and see if I can get rid of the cock on close and smooth it up a little. Will check and see what firing pin fall I have first.
http://sgrcustomrifles.com/videos.html

[KHGS]

Never heard the phrase " Action Timing " before....

I have. It was in a war movie "OK men, its time for action...."
Barry, if you as a manufacturer of actions haven't heard of it, then maybe we should call it something else e.g. Barnardising?

Alan & Barry, action timing or tuning is not new, it is & always has been part of action truing or as some call it "blueprinting". Some actions are produced with less than ideal timing which need to be rectified for some forms of precision shooting. There is also a safety factor which poor timing can impact on where very light pull triggers are in use combined with a fast rate of fire as in benchrest matches.
Because of the variation in the pick up point of the cocking piece with many of the "custom" Remington 700 clone actions used in benchrest competition, Jewel supply their triggers with a long sear so that they are required to be individually timed to the action that they are to be fitted to.
Keith H.

[aaronraad]

Single action timing...couldn't help myself enjoy

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